who knows if humza yousaf will be in charge in scotland by the end of the week. downing street says it can stop the boats, but robertjenrick — who quit government — reckons he's got a better plan. and one of america's most famous politicians, nancy pelosi, tells us why democracy itself is in danger. morning, morning. reunited in the studio — chris philp, the home office minister, and labour's wes streeting after this moment earlier in the week. are they then going to be sent to rwanda if they came here on a crossing? from... from congo, yeah. would people be sent from...

well, i mean, rwanda is a different country of congo, isn't it? - it's a different country. yes. it is. yes. definitely. laughter. he's saying, if they come from a war zone in congo, would they then be sent to rwanda? what was going on there? did you really not know, or was it one of those moments of live television? i was struggling to hear the question and i was asking as a rhetorical question rather than a substantive question rather than a substantive question is i think any fair—minded listener would conclude. mes listener would conclude. wes streeting. — listener would conclude. wes streeting, do _ listener would conclude. wes streeting, do you _ listener would conclude. wes streeting, do you practice that i roll or side eye in the mirror, it was impressive? i roll or side eye in the mirror, it was impressive?— roll or side eye in the mirror, it was impressive? roll or side eye in the mirror, it was imressive? .,, ,, _ was impressive? i was dumbstruck by the whole moment. _ was impressive? i was dumbstruck by the whole moment. chris _ was impressive? i was dumbstruck by the whole moment. chris says - was impressive? i was dumbstruck by the whole moment. chris says it - was impressive? i was dumbstruck by the whole moment. chris says it wasl the whole moment. chris says it was a rhetorical— the whole moment. chris says it was a rhetorical question, i'll believe chris _ a rhetorical question, i'll believe chris. ~ chris. well... laughter i laughter we'll talk to you both later in the programme about some of the serious points about that moment on question time earlier in the week.

the lib dem leader ed davey�*s here. and with us throughout robertjenrick, former immigration minister, labour's baroness shami chakrabarti, and former snp leader in westminster ian blackford. busy, busy time in scotland too. let's start as we do with the news. the observer splashes with that defection of dan poulter. you'll hear our interview in a few minutes' time. that makes the front page of the sunday telegraph can be in. the mirror says smuggling gangs are holding migrants in world war ii bunkers before they cross the channel and the express has keir starmer saying labour would keep the pension is triple lock if it wins the election. they also have an interview with rishi sunak, who has today refused to deny an election could be in the summer although his expectation, he said, that it will

be later in the year. you three, good morning, welcome. it's very rare this happens. how damaging is it to your boss, rishi sunak? i damaging is it to your boss, rishi sunak? ., ., , ., , sunak? i thought it was a confused resignation- _ sunak? i thought it was a confused resignation. annie _ sunak? i thought it was a confused resignation. annie is _ sunak? i thought it was a confused resignation. annie is wrong - sunak? i thought it was a confused resignation. annie is wrong on - sunak? i thought it was a confused resignation. annie is wrong on the | resignation. annie is wrong on the facts. when he came to parliament in 2010 the government was spending about £130 billion a year on the nhs. since then, undera conservative government, there's been a 40% real terms increase in spending, so is the suggestion that conservatives don't care about public services, the disadvantaged or the nhs, is public services, the disadvantaged orthe nhs, isjust public services, the disadvantaged or the nhs, isjust plain wrong. politically, it's damaging, isn't it? a defection as a symbol of something going badly wrong. it’s something going badly wrong. it's alwa s something going badly wrong. it�*s always a shame to lose colleagues, people do that for a range of reasons, personal ones, sometimes it's opportunism but the argument is clearly incorrect. the issue for the nhs today is not about spending more

money, it's about reform, it's about increasing productivity, delivering better quality of service to the general public. his better quality of service to the general public.— better quality of service to the general public. his point is clear, he doesn't _ general public. his point is clear, he doesn't think _ general public. his point is clear, he doesn't think that _ general public. his point is clear, he doesn't think that is _ general public. his point is clear, l he doesn't think that is happening which is a gift to labour, isn't it? dan has been on my radarfor a dan has been on my radar for a little _ dan has been on my radar for a little while _ dan has been on my radar for a little while because i remember being _ little while because i remember being in— little while because i remember being in common cause with him during _ being in common cause with him during the — being in common cause with him during the pandemic when he was a co—signatory to a campaign for the so-called — co—signatory to a campaign for the so—called trips waiver that would have _ so—called trips waiver that would have allowed vaccine patterns to be temporarily lifted so that the global— temporarily lifted so that the global south could vaccinate more quickly, _ global south could vaccinate more quickly, so — global south could vaccinate more quickly, so i think he is an internationalist. i think in his piece — internationalist. i think in his piece today as well as speaking up for the _ piece today as well as speaking up for the beloved nhs, piece today as well as speaking up forthe beloved nhs, he piece today as well as speaking up for the beloved nhs, he speaks up against _ for the beloved nhs, he speaks up against what he sees as nationalism in the _ against what he sees as nationalism in the british conservative party. he is— in the british conservative party. he is obviously a more internationalist person and i think i internationalist person and i think i share _ internationalist person and i think i share values with him. it�*s i share values with him. it's interesting _ i share values with him. it's interesting you _ i share values with him. it�*s interesting you say that because he clearly think the conservative party has changed, but do you believe that labour will be able to get more conservatives before the general election, coming across to you? i election, coming across to you? i think it's perfectly possible,

certainly from the common cause i've been making with senior conservatives in the house of lords over for— conservatives in the house of lords over for example rwanda. i have to believe _ over for example rwanda. i have to believe that there are others in the british— believe that there are others in the british conservative party who feel that their— british conservative party who feel that their tradition is being ignored _ that their tradition is being lunored. �* that their tradition is being innored. �* . ., that their tradition is being innored. �* _, ., that their tradition is being innored. �* ., ., ., ignored. 0k, we'll come to rwanda later in the — ignored. 0k, we'll come to rwanda later in the show. _ ignored. 0k, we'll come to rwanda later in the show. ian, _ ignored. 0k, we'll come to rwanda later in the show. ian, a _ ignored. 0k, we'll come to rwanda later in the show. ian, a huge - ignored. 0k, we'll come to rwandai later in the show. ian, a huge week in scotland, real turmoil, later in the show. ian, a huge week in scotland, realturmoil, humza yousaf in case you've been living under a rock, yousaf in case you've been living undera rock, hisjob as yousaf in case you've been living under a rock, hisjob as first minister is on the line. who is in more trouble of the tories or the snp? i more trouble of the tories or the snp? 4' ,, snp? i think the snp will get throu~h snp? i think the snp will get through this _ snp? i think the snp will get through this week, _ snp? i think the snp will get through this week, the - snp? i think the snp will get through this week, the snp l snp? | think the snp will get - through this week, the snp leader has made — through this week, the snp leader has made the _ through this week, the snp leader has made the offer— through this week, the snp leader has made the offer to— through this week, the snp leader has made the offer to talk- through this week, the snp leader has made the offer to talk to - through this week, the snp leaderi has made the offer to talk to other parties _ has made the offer to talk to other parties we — has made the offer to talk to other parties. we have _ has made the offer to talk to other parties. we have a _ has made the offer to talk to other parties. we have a peer— has made the offer to talk to other parties. we have a peer system i has made the offer to talk to other parties. we have a peer system in| parties. we have a peer system in our parliament, _ parties. we have a peer system in our parliament, it's _ parties. we have a peer system in our parliament, it's difficult - parties. we have a peer system in our parliament, it's difficult to - our parliament, it's difficult to achieve — our parliament, it's difficult to achieve a _ our parliament, it's difficult to achieve a majority, _ our parliament, it's difficult to achieve a majority, it's - our parliament, it's difficult to achieve a majority, it's a - achieve a majority, it's a parliament— achieve a majority, it's a parliament of— achieve a majority, it's a| parliament of minorities. achieve a majority, it's a - parliament of minorities. what we need _ parliament of minorities. what we need to— parliament of minorities. what we need to do— parliament of minorities. what we need to do is— parliament of minorities. what we need to do is recognise _ parliament of minorities. what we need to do is recognise the - need to do is recognise the challenges _ need to do is recognise the challenges we _ need to do is recognise the challenges we face, - need to do is recognise the challenges we face, on - need to do is recognise the - challenges we face, on climate change — challenges we face, on climate change get _ challenges we face, on climate change get the _ challenges we face, on climate change get the economy- challenges we face, on climate change get the economy going | challenges we face, on climate - change get the economy going and we have a _ change get the economy going and we have a first— change get the economy going and we have a first minister— change get the economy going and we have a first minister who _ change get the economy going and we have a first minister who will - change get the economy going and we have a first minister who will set - have a first minister who will set out his— have a first minister who will set out his agenda, _ have a first minister who will set out his agenda, win _ have a first minister who will set out his agenda, win common- have a first minister who will set . out his agenda, win common cause have a first minister who will set - out his agenda, win common cause and win the _ out his agenda, win common cause and win the vote _ out his agenda, win common cause and win the vote this — out his agenda, win common cause and win the vote this week. _ out his agenda, win common cause and win the vote this week. istatewi— out his agenda, win common cause and win the vote this week.— win the vote this week. we'll see what happens. — win the vote this week. we'll see what happens, we _ win the vote this week. we'll see what happens, we talk _ win the vote this week. we'll see what happens, we talk about - win the vote this week. we'll see | what happens, we talk about that more in the programme. let's hear, then, in his own words,

why dr dan poulter has done that rare thing — defect — quitting the tories to join labour. well, i'd been thinking about it for a little while and it was alongside my work as an mp. i work — still work — as an nhs doctor and always have done. the health service that i saw under huge strain is very different to the health service of maybe a decade ago, and the struggles and the challenges that patients have been experiencing in accessing timely good care was something that really resonated with me and stayed with me, and ifound it increasingly difficult to look my nhs colleagues in the eye, my patients in the eye, and my constituents in the eye with good conscience. and i feel that the nhs deserves better than it has at the moment in terms of how its run and governed. but you pin that on, then, the government's handling of the health service. because of course the nhs has had lots of problems for a long time, its run by managers in all sorts of places, but you pin that on the conservatives' handling of it? i think it comes from that. i think it comes

from values, as well. very clearly, it's been the case in the last... ..eight, ten years or so, the nhs is not a priority to the conservative party and to the government, and if we want to do better for patients, we want to restore that service to where it was before, then i believe that we need to look to a party that has a track record when it was in government before under tony blair and gordon brown, that has a track record of delivering for patients, transforming services, getting on top of waiting lists, investing in community health care. and that's what keir starmer and the labour party i know will do, and they will be trusted, i'm sure, to do it by nhs staff, as well. but when you have — as a conservative, you've previously said that labour had been profligate and inefficient at how it ran the nhs. you've attacked labour's record of running the nhs in wales. i mean, i think...certainly the nhs in all parts of the country — be it in scotland or wales or england — is under...

..is under pressure. but the service that i saw during those night shifts was unrecognisable from the service that i worked in routinely before i became an mp. frankly, patients deserve better. it shouldn't be the case that people — a third of patients are waiting more than 60 days for urgent cancer care. that shouldn't be the case in a civilised health system. how would you describe the broader change in the conservative party? we now have a tory party that resembles sometimes a little bit more a nationalist, national party rather than a party of the centre right. and i feel that, actually, the changes that the labour party has made since 2019 under keir starmer — notjust on the health service but particularly on that offer on health, about tackling the determinants of poor health, housing, poverty and all those issues — are the sort of things that are really going to make a big difference. and i think that's why i believe that... why i've made the change i have

and why i believe it will make a difference to the patients i look after. since 2010, though, constituents in your suffolk home have chosen you, sent you to westminster as a conservative. some of them might be angry that you have left the party that they chose. what do you say to them? well, i had two things i could have done. i could have carried on to the election and then stood down. or i could... i could have decided to potentially have — there could be a by—election and call a by—election. but we're at the point where there might be a general election called at any moment. and i think rishi sunak should call a general election tomorrow, or as soon as possible and let the public choose, you know, and make a choice about who should be in government. and i thought about it and i thought, well, what's the best thing or the right thing to do? on balance, i thought — because there will be an election very, very soon — it didn't make sense to have a by—election. i thought, on balance, it was better to continue to work diligently for my constituents through until the end of this parliament,

be that in a few weeks or potentially a few months. 0k. dan, thank you so much indeed for speaking to us today. thank you. let's talk to home office minister chris philp, then. great to have you with us, thank you for coming in. dan poulter�*s assessment of the conservative party is a damning one. he says you become a nationalist party, you've lost your compassion, it's a sign of real rot, isn't it, he has done this? i rot, isn't it, he has done this? i don't accept what dan has done at all. the nhs was one of two departments that was protected during the years of spending restraint after the labour government bankrupted the country. we are spending £165 billion on the nhs, a 13% increase above inflation just over the last four or five years alone. in the last year the nhs has hired an extra 68,000 people of whom 7000 are doctors, a net increase, and there are 21,000 more

nurses today than there were a year ago. that isn't a fine of a party deprioritising the nhs, it's the sign of a political party, the conservatives, investing heavily in the nhs because it is a priority. this the nhs because it is a priority. as conservatives would say it's not just about the money, what dan poulter is saying is it's also about values and he is saying the conservative party now is not the conservative party now is not the conservative party now is not the conservative party he joined conservative party now is not the conservative party hejoined in 2010, that it's lost its compassion, and it doesn't value public services in the way he thinks he ought to and he also told me he believes some of his now former tory colleagues share his now former tory colleagues share his views. i his now former tory colleagues share his views. ., �* ., .. , ., �* his views. i don't accept that. i'm olice his views. i don't accept that. i'm police minister, _ his views. i don't accept that. i'm police minister, i— his views. i don't accept that. i'm police minister, iwork— his views. i don't accept that. i'm police minister, i work closely - his views. i don't accept that. i'm. police minister, i work closely with police minister, i work closely with police every day of the week. ask any police officer or chief, is to, they will say the home secretary, they will say the home secretary, the prime minister and i hugely value the sacrifice they are making working for the public, the same is true of workers in the nhs, school teachers and so on.— true of workers in the nhs, school teachers and so on. don't you think every schoolteacher, _ teachers and so on. don't you think every schoolteacher, everyone - teachers and so on. don't you think every schoolteacher, everyone in l teachers and so on. don't you think. every schoolteacher, everyone in the nhs, every police officer, would say

the conservative government value what they do. i the conservative government value what they do— the conservative government value what they do. i hope they do, we are investin: what they do. i hope they do, we are investing record _ what they do. i hope they do, we are investing record amounts _ what they do. i hope they do, we are investing record amounts in - investing record amounts in education and health, we have record numbers of police officers and on your question about results we've gone through a very difficult pandemic, we've had unprecedented strikes in the nhs and despite those challenges waiting lists are now reducing. they've come down... i think you would in fairness acknowledge that was due to covid and the strikes, they are now coming down, they've been coming down in a sustained way for the last five months, by 200,000. contrast that with labour's record in wales, where tens of thousands of people in wales are fleeing the welch nhs under labour to get treated there in england and the proportion of the most population suffering very long waits and on welsh nhs waiting lists under labour, those proportions are higher than in england so i don't know why dan thinks joining the labour party is a good idea when their track record in office in wales on the nhs is terrible. he has been clear he _ wales on the nhs is terrible. he has been clear he is _ wales on the nhs is terrible. he has been clear he is doing _ wales on the nhs is terrible. he has been clear he is doing it _ wales on the nhs is terrible. he has

been clear he is doing it because - wales on the nhs is terrible. he has been clear he is doing it because ofl been clear he is doing it because of what he is seen as a doctor with his own eyes, but with a defection it's notjust own eyes, but with a defection it's not just about the statistics and who is right and who is wrong and the particular case, doesn't it betray a wider situation here? that you have a conservative mp who says, enough, ifancy the you have a conservative mp who says, enough, i fancy the other party, i have no faith in this party any more. you have about 70 conservative mps who are said they are standing down, some for political, some for personal reasons, a huge number. i didn't is mirrored by the fact that polls have consistently shown for months voters are walking away from you too? months voters are walking away from ou too? ., ., ~' ~' months voters are walking away from ou too? ~ . ., , you too? look, i think clearly oinion you too? look, i think clearly opinion polls _ you too? look, i think clearly opinion polls are _ you too? look, i think clearly opinion polls are where - you too? look, i think clearly opinion polls are where they | you too? look, i think clearly - opinion polls are where they are, we can see what they currently say but i think as we continued to deliver and get things done the public will appreciate that. we see inflation falling dramatically, down to 3%. wages rising at 6%. for nine months now wages are rising faster than inflation. nhs waiting lists are coming down. last year the small

boat crossing stopped by a third compared to the previous year. we've just committed to 2.5% of gdp expenditure on defence. a radical programme of welfare reform. rishi sunak done — programme of welfare reform. rishi sunak done numerous resets, refreshes, nothing seems to be working for you. this refreshes, nothing seems to be working for you.— refreshes, nothing seems to be working for you. as we get closer to an election — working for you. as we get closer to an election most _ working for you. as we get closer to an election most likely _ working for you. as we get closer to an election most likely in _ working for you. as we get closer to an election most likely in the - an election most likely in the autumn it becomes more of a choice rather than a referendum on do you feel grumpy with the government and clearly people do feel grumpy with the government but as we get closer to the election it's not a referendum on grumpiness, it's a choice, who do you want to run the country, rishi sunak who has a plan thatis country, rishi sunak who has a plan that is working or keir starmer who has no plan whatsoever and wanted to make jeremy corbyn has no plan whatsoever and wanted to makejeremy corbyn prime minister and confronted with that choice we will see our poll ratings improved. lets talk about one of those plans. the government finally got its latest round of immigration legislation through parliament, the rwanda plan. on question time, there

was a serious question behind that incident. a member of the audience wanted to know if family members came to the uk from goma, city on the border of congo with rwanda, could they theoretically be sent back to rwanda where they would be in danger. you said people would not be deported if there was clearly a risk they would behind. doesn't that illustrate precisely the problem with this bill that robertjenrick and others identify? there will be exceptions and because they will be exceptions and because they will be exceptions it will end up getting gummed up in the courts. it simply will not work. _ gummed up in the courts. it simply will not work. a _ gummed up in the courts. it simply will not work. a few _ gummed up in the courts. it simply will not work. a few points - gummed up in the courts. it simply will not work. a few points to - gummed up in the courts. it simply| will not work. a few points to make. i would say to anyone who is in france, whetherfrom congo or anywhere else, and the numbers crossing on small boats from congo are tiny, but anyone in france, germany, anywhere in europe, thinking about getting on a small group to boat, please don't do it. it is dangerous, illegal and unnecessary because france, germany and belgium are safe countries, so

thatis and belgium are safe countries, so that is the overwhelmingly important point. thesejourneys that is the overwhelmingly important point. these journeys should that is the overwhelmingly important point. thesejourneys should not that is the overwhelmingly important point. these journeys should not be getting made at all in the first place and that is why the rwanda plan is such an important point of our overall plan to stop the boats. secondly, the safety mechanism, a clause in the bill that talks about serious and irreversible harm, that is a very high bar to be used only in exceptional circumstances. on the specific question about whether someone of congolese background would have a problem in rwanda, there is no reason to believe they will, but there is a monitoring committee that will carefully examine those, an independent committee, that will examine those questions in case a problem does arise. there is no reason today to believe there will be.— believe there will be. robert jenrick believe there will be. robert jenrick and _ believe there will be. robert jenrick and others _ believe there will be. robert jenrick and others will - believe there will be. robert jenrick and others will argue | believe there will be. robert - jenrick and others will argue this jenrick and others will argue this week that parliament should put a cap on migrant numbers. i've a wrong? cap on migrant numbers. i've a wron: ? ., , cap on migrant numbers. i've a wron? ., , ., ~' cap on migrant numbers. i've a mom? . , ., ~ ., ., wrong? that is talking about legal miuration, wrong? that is talking about legal migration. so _ wrong? that is talking about legal migration, so we _ wrong? that is talking about legal migration, so we are _ wrong? that is talking about legal migration, so we are committed l wrong? that is talking about legal| migration, so we are committed to substantially reducing legal migration. we don't think it is right to have large—scale low skilled migration, we want a much

smaller number of high skill... should you have a cap? i smaller number of high skill... should you have a cap?- smaller number of high skill... should you have a cap? i am not in a situation no — should you have a cap? i am not in a situation no position _ should you have a cap? i am not in a situation no position to _ should you have a cap? i am not in a situation no position to advocate - situation no position to advocate for a hard cap but i can say we are taking measures that have been enacted and implemented to reduce legal migration by about 300,000 per year, by significantly increasing salary threshold, reducing the numbers of dependents who can come in with migrants. i think the british public want us to control, significantly reduce migration, legal as well as a stop illegal migration. we have 9 million people of working age in the uk not working. we have overl million people on unemployment benefit although that is as a percentage half of what it was under labour so i would like to see us prioritise getting those people into work, not importing labour in small quantities stop right there will be lots of debate about that in the next few days. what do you think? we always love to hear your views. you can email us at kuenssberg@bbc.co.uk, or on social

use the hashtag #bbclaurak. and if we have time we might share some of of the conversation later in the show — or in our thursday newsletter. if you want to sign up, the details are on the screen. dan poulter�*s defection is, of course, a big win for labour — especially in the run up to the election. and the general elections, well, who knows? maybe soon. wes streeting, labour's shadow health secretary, joins me now. good to have you with us. did labour offer any future bobbles to dan poulter get him to defect? he has been very clear — poulter get him to defect? he has been very clear that _ poulter get him to defect? he has been very clear that he _ poulter get him to defect? he has been very clear that he is - poulter get him to defect? he has been very clear that he is going i been very clear that he is going back to the nhs full—time. he is not standing for parliament at the next election, this idea that he isjust abandoning the sinking conservative ship to save itself is nonsense. he has abandoned the conservative party to save the nhs. i think there are millions of conservative voters across the country feeling politically hopeless you can see the chaos and the failure to deliver of

now five conservative prime ministers who are now looking for an alternative. i hope they will trust the doctor who has seen the conservative party up close in parliament and also the changed labour party up close in parliament and i hope they will give change a chance at the next general election by following dan poulter backing labour so we can get our nhs back on its feet and fit for the future, sort out our economy and get britain's future back. i sort out our economy and get britain's future back.- sort out our economy and get britain's future back. i am sure you will use this _ britain's future back. i am sure you will use this in _ britain's future back. i am sure you will use this in pain _ britain's future back. i am sure you will use this in pain in _ britain's future back. i am sure you will use this in pain in the - britain's future back. i am sure you will use this in pain in the months i will use this in pain in the months to come, but did labour offer him anything in return for him coming across, did you offer him a place in the house of lords, for example because you are not that i'm aware of. he said he was going back to the nhs full—time of. he said he was going back to the nhs full-tim— nhs full-time when parliament is dissolved, which _ nhs full-time when parliament is dissolved, which cannot _ nhs full-time when parliament is dissolved, which cannot come - nhs full-time when parliament is l dissolved, which cannot come soon enough as far as we are concerned. he is a front line can the nation with years of experience in mental health. we are committed to having

mental health reform in the first king's speech because the mental health act is woefully out of date, we have 40,000 young people waiting more than two years for treatment and i want to make sure that mental health act reform that labour government will bring in hits the front line in a positive way as soon as possible, as well as a mental health support in every school and community until health clubs in every community. fin community until health clubs in every community.— community until health clubs in every community. on the specifics of this decision — every community. on the specifics of this decision he _ every community. on the specifics of this decision he has _ every community. on the specifics of this decision he has made _ every community. on the specifics of this decision he has made -- - every community. on the specifics of this decision he has made -- mental| this decision he has made —— mental health hubs. can you rule out that there were any offers made to him? he has certainly not mentioned anything to me and neither has the labour party. this anything to me and neither has the labour party-— labour party. as the labour party carried out _ labour party. as the labour party carried out the _ labour party. as the labour party carried out the same _ labour party. as the labour party carried out the same due - labour party. as the labour party| carried out the same due diligence they would on any other new candidates coming aboard? he they would on any other new candidates coming aboard? he is not a labour candidate _ candidates coming aboard? he is not a labour candidate at _ candidates coming aboard? he is not a labour candidate at the _ candidates coming aboard? he is not a labour candidate at the next - a labour candidate at the next general election. he has been a member of parliament for 14 years, still works in the nhs wherever he can, he is going back to the nhs when this parliament comes to an end, and i think it... i think a sign of both the state of the

conservative party, but also the strength of the labour party that we are attracting someone like dan poulter over to the labour benches before the general election arrives and i hope that sends a signal to those disaffected conservatives who are looking for a political home, that they are welcome to join us in labour because we want to unite the country. challenges are so great, we have to bring our country back together to tackle the state of our economy, our public services and the threats and is dangerous and volatile world.— threats and is dangerous and volatile world. politics is so very tribal to people, _ volatile world. politics is so very tribalto people, often _ volatile world. politics is so veryl tribalto people, often something tribal to people, often something they feel in their gut and he is a second conservative after christian wakeford in 2022 to come across to the labour party. you are voting with the tories in edinburgh to try to sink the snp government. some labour voters watching might think it is cosy and they are not comfortable with it. i it is cosy and they are not comfortable with it. i don't agree with our comfortable with it. i don't agree with your characterisation - comfortable with it. i don't agree with your characterisation of - with your characterisation of scottish labour's a position. of course we have no confidence in the first minister of scotland, no confidence in the snp government.

look at the chaos and division. from my vantage point in westminster, remarkable parallels between the implosion of the snp and the state of the tories. but also, we want to build a big tent, make sure that people in this country who are looking for a party that is serious about turning britain's challenges around another thing coming because if we win the next election, yes, we have set out a big agenda on the nhs this week on transport, keir starmer�*s commitment to protect triple lock in pensions. but when it comes to tackling big questions we have to see government, business and civil society working together which is great that we have richard walker, chairman of iceland, former conservative, that we have nick foles who advised david cameron on government, we want to build that big tent. government, we want to build that bi tent. ., ., , big tent. you mentioned the triple lock, the promise _ big tent. you mentioned the triple lock, the promise to _ big tent. you mentioned the triple lock, the promise to pensioners i big tent. you mentioned the triple l lock, the promise to pensioners that their benefits will always go up in line with inflation. keir starmer

and you are making a commitment today that you would keep that if you win the election but a couple of weeks ago you were saying that you would have to see what state the economy is in before you make that decision. it isjust economy is in before you make that decision. it is just politics unless something dramatic has happened to the economy in the last couple of weeks, since you were saying that, that you want to reveal to the nation this morning. the that you want to reveal to the nation this morninu. . ., nation this morning. the fundamental reason why keir— nation this morning. the fundamental reason why keir starmer _ nation this morning. the fundamental reason why keir starmer has - nation this morning. the fundamental reason why keir starmer has set - nation this morning. the fundamental reason why keir starmer has set out | reason why keir starmer has set out to give pensioners that reassurance was rishi sunak�*s claim that he will scrap national insurance, creating a £46 billion hole in the public finances. he has not ruled out a cut to the state pension, cuts to the nhs, ora to the state pension, cuts to the nhs, or a rise to the state pension, cuts to the nhs, ora rise in income to the state pension, cuts to the nhs, or a rise in income tax. we want to give pensioners that reassurance to know that they will get certainty with labour, we will protect the triple lock. it is currently built into the government baseline but this is a conservative party saying they will scrap national insurance, create a £46 billion black hole without saying... they are not saying that, they are saying over time they would like to

phase out national insurance. we both phase out national insurance. - both know, and if we said something like this you would be hauling us over the coals and every broadcaster should hold them over the calls on that commitment. you should hold them over the calls on that commitment.— that commitment. you are characterising _ that commitment. you are characterising something i that commitment. you are | characterising something in that commitment. you are i characterising something in a that commitment. you are - characterising something in a way that they would not accept and they are not here to answer that question. i want to ask you finally about immigration because we will talk about it in a few minutes. there is a move being suggested by some conservatives to bring back the idea of capping legal immigration at a certain level. what is wrong with that? ., ., , . ., that? there are two things. we have sent a lot that? there are two things. we have spent a lot of— that? there are two things. we have spent a lot of time _ that? there are two things. we have spent a lot of time talking _ that? there are two things. we have spent a lot of time talking about - spent a lot of time talking about illegal migration and the boats and then there is net migration which i think objectively people agree is too high. if you want to bring down net migration you need a serious plan to do it over time and i will make a contribution to that in the national health service. we have always been an international employer in the nhs, that is a good thing, but we definitely have an over reliance and we are taking people from countries like nepal, which have chronic shortages of their own, we are turning away

straight a students from studying medicine at university in this country, and i think it is unfair in the case of home—grown talent so we will grow that home—grown talent, make sure we build our own domestic workforce instead of constantly looking to pull the immigration lever, often with immoral consequences in terms of where we are poaching staff from. i think thatis are poaching staff from. i think that is a serious approach to bring down net migration longer term. we are getting a lot of gimmicks because people are jockeying for position in the conservative party amidst all of this chaos. we need to bring net migration down, tackle illegal migration, and yvette cooper has got serious plan, not the headline grabbing gimmicks we have seen from the tories. lode headline grabbing gimmicks we have seen from the tories.— headline grabbing gimmicks we have seen from the tories. we need to end it there. seen from the tories. we need to end it there- always _ seen from the tories. we need to end it there. always great _ seen from the tories. we need to end it there. always great to _ seen from the tories. we need to end it there. always great to have - seen from the tories. we need to end it there. always great to have you - it there. always great to have you with us. viewers want to see and hear about your detailed plan for social care, so went that is back and ready do bring it back to us on sunday. thank you for being with us. as we've mentioned, the scottish first minister humza yousaf could face two no confidence

votes next week. one in himself and one in his government, after he dumped his coalition partners, the greens. to hang on, he either needs to get them back on side — unlikely — or win the support of alba, the small independence party thatjust happens to be led by alex salmond, who used to be the snp leader, who's with us now. —— we were hoping he would join us then but he has been slightly delayed so we will speak to him in a few minutes. first, let's talk to our panel and we will focus on immigration. robertjenrick, us immigration minister. our view is ahead you quit over the rwanda plan but you now want to look at legal migration and put a cap on numbers. why cannot i quit over at the rwanda bill because i didn't think it was strong enough but the bigger issue to me is legal migration because the number of people coming into this country is so great that it has an even larger impact on the general

population. i think that for the last 30 years, politicians of all political stripes have made promises to control and to reduce the levels of legal migration only to do the opposite. in fact, in the last 25 years, the number of people coming into this country has been 100 times higher than the number that have come in in the 25 years prior to that. i think that level of unplanned legal migration is putting immense pressure on housing, public services, community cohesion, and as we argue in the report we are publishing, it has not made us richer. forthe publishing, it has not made us richer. for the last two years, gdp per capita has been falling. the argument i make is that the only way to end this once and for all is to set a cap, which is a lock set by parliament with proper forecast, set a cap, which is a lock set by parliament with properforecast, a real democratic debate that ensures the broken promises never happen again. the broken promises never happen aaain. , ., , ., again. the problem with that, thou . h, again. the problem with that, though. is _ again. the problem with that, though, is that _ again. the problem with that, though, is that your _ again. the problem with that, though, is that your former i though, is that your former colleagues at a cap. not legal cap

but they had a target of getting immigration under 100,000. it didn't happen. why on earth would people believe this would happen now, this would make any difference? and also on the economy, lots of business have sat here and said they absolutely need immigration, they couldn't cope without legal migration. i couldn't cope without legal migration-— couldn't cope without legal miaration. . , .,, migration. i will answer those questions _ migration. i will answer those questions in _ migration. i will answer those questions in turn. _ migration. i will answer those questions in turn. first, - migration. i will answer those questions in turn. first, the i migration. i will answer those l questions in turn. first, the cap migration. i will answer those - questions in turn. first, the cap is necessary to do exactly as you say, which is to restore a degree of trust. the public are rightly furious that politicians have broken their promise, i think the conservative party, like other parties, have little credibility on this issue. only by having a parliamentary lock can the public trust that it is actually going to happen. that enables parliament to debate exactly the sorts of trade—offs that you are referring to, whether the health service or the economy. i don't think that this level of predominantly low skilled migration has made us richer, i think it has contributed to our low productivity in recent years because businesses have lent on the lever of

low skilled migration, rather than investing in skills, training, technology, the things that genuinely drive our country forward and improve their wealth of citizens of this country rather than just bringing people from overseas stop let's talk about the other side of this. ., let's talk about the other side of this. . ., ., ., , ., this. illegal migration as the meat would call it, _ this. illegal migration as the meat would call it, the _ this. illegal migration as the meat would call it, the rwanda - this. illegal migration as the meat would call it, the rwanda bill. - this. illegal migration as the meat would call it, the rwanda bill. i i would call it, the rwanda bill. i would call it, the rwanda bill. i would call it asylum seeking protected by the refugee convention. you have _ protected by the refugee convention. you have been writing about the play between human rights and said people should be defending it. i haste between human rights and said people should be defending it.— should be defending it. i have a book called _ should be defending it. i have a book called human _ should be defending it. i have a book called human rights - should be defending it. i have a book called human rights the | should be defending it. i have a - book called human rights the case for the _ book called human rights the case for the defence and i am amazed that almost _ for the defence and i am amazed that almost a _ for the defence and i am amazed that almost a quarter of the way into the zist almost a quarter of the way into the 21st century — almost a quarter of the way into the 21st century we need a debate like that because human rights have been denigrated _ that because human rights have been denigrated by people across the political— denigrated by people across the political spectrum and immigration and the _ political spectrum and immigration and the toxic occasion of the debate about— and the toxic occasion of the debate about immigration has been part of that _ about immigration has been part of that. desperate people in boats ought _ that. desperate people in boats ought to— that. desperate people in boats ought to have a safer routes to the

uk. ought to have a safer routes to the uk that _ ought to have a safer routes to the uk that is — ought to have a safer routes to the uk. that is my view. but what has happened. — uk. that is my view. but what has happened. i— uk. that is my view. but what has happened, i think, uk. that is my view. but what has happened, ithink, with uk. that is my view. but what has happened, i think, with the stunt that is— happened, i think, with the stunt that is the — happened, i think, with the stunt that is the rwanda bill is it is not really— that is the rwanda bill is it is not really about stopping the boats, it is about _ really about stopping the boats, it is about stopping the courts. it is about— is about stopping the courts. it is about having a debate that basically leads rishi sunak and his chums to say at _ leads rishi sunak and his chums to say at the — leads rishi sunak and his chums to say at the next general election, let's pull— say at the next general election, let's pull out of the court of human rights _ let's pull out of the court of human rights do — let's pull out of the court of human richts. ,, ., let's pull out of the court of human richts. i. ~ ., let's pull out of the court of human richts. ~ . , let's pull out of the court of human richts. ~ ., , ., let's pull out of the court of human richts. ,, ., rights. do you think that is a plan? i do. the rwanda _ rights. do you think that is a plan? i do. the rwanda bill— rights. do you think that is a plan? | i do. the rwanda bill defenestrates the domestic courts, as chris philp said _ the domestic courts, as chris philp said it _ the domestic courts, as chris philp said it will— the domestic courts, as chris philp said. it will be very hard for an asylum — said. it will be very hard for an asylum seeker to get redress before british— asylum seeker to get redress before british courts so their lawyers will be duty— bound to british courts so their lawyers will be duty—bound to pursue claims in the court — be duty—bound to pursue claims in the court of— be duty—bound to pursue claims in the court of human rights. at which point, _ the court of human rights. at which point, mr_ the court of human rights. at which point, mr sunak can say this is a foreign— point, mr sunak can say this is a foreign court, not an international court, _ foreign court, not an international court. and — foreign court, not an international court, and therefore we should pull out. ~ ., ~ court, and therefore we should pull out. ~ . ,, ., ., out. we will talk about scotland in second. out. we will talk about scotland in second- you _ out. we will talk about scotland in second. you are _ out. we will talk about scotland in second. you are in _ out. we will talk about scotland in second. you are in the _ out. we will talk about scotland in second. you are in the home - out. we will talk about scotland in l second. you are in the home office when this plan was conceived. is that what this is about? this is about securing our borders. it needs to be stronger. i do support leaving the european

convention on human rights because although it had noble intentions when it was created in the aftermath of the second world war to protect europe from fascism it's been twisted out of all recognition and know you are seeing activistjudges in strasbourg who view this as a living instrument, taking decisions that are best placed for parliament and for politicians. you saw this very vividly this month.- very vividly this month. they've rotected very vividly this month. they've protected british _ very vividly this month. they've protected british people - very vividly this month. they've protected british people from i very vividly this month. they've - protected british people from abuses of power— protected british people from abuses of power by their own governments on occasions _ of power by their own governments on occasions and they've certainly protected people all over the council — protected people all over the council of europe. there are currently _ council of europe. there are currently interim measures in relation — currently interim measures in relation to putin's russia preventing ukrainian prisoners of war being — preventing ukrainian prisoners of war being executed. what why wouldn't you _ war being executed. what why wouldn't you trust _ war being executed. twat why wouldn't you trust the british judges... wouldn't you trust the british 'ud . es. .. , ., wouldn't you trust the british 'udues. .. , ., ., wouldn't you trust the british 'udaes... , ., ., , . ., judges... they have no 'urisdiction over judges... they have no 'urisdiction oveuminefi judges... they have no 'urisdiction over ukraine and h judges... they have no jurisdiction over ukraine and russia. - judges... they have no jurisdiction over ukraine and russia. there's l over ukraine and russia. there's alwa s over ukraine and russia. there's always been _ over ukraine and russia. there's always been rights _ over ukraine and russia. there's always been rights long - over ukraine and russia. there's always been rights long before i over ukraine and russia. there's i always been rights long before the european court of human rights but i want the decisions to be made in britain. �* , want the decisions to be made in

britain. 3 ., ,. ., �* britain. it's fascinating... all talk. britain. it's fascinating... all talk- we _ britain. it's fascinating... all talk. we must _ britain. it's fascinating... all talk. we must talk - britain. it's fascinating... all talk. we must talk about. britain. it's fascinating... all - talk. we must talk about scotland, ian blackford, you were leader of the snp in westminster, the snp is in a lot of trouble in edinburgh, humza yousaf�*sjob is hanging by a thread. there are two options, either he can get back the green party, who he had a huge fall out with to back him, or he can talk to alex samba —— alex salmond's party, alba. which is it going to be? if you can't do either, he will be toast. ~ �* ., ., , you can't do either, he will be toast.�* . . _.. ,, toast. we've had a very successful eriod toast. we've had a very successful period working _ toast. we've had a very successful period working with _ toast. we've had a very successful period working with the _ toast. we've had a very successful period working with the green - toast. we've had a very successful. period working with the green party and that— period working with the green party and that has— period working with the green party and that has come _ period working with the green party and that has come to _ period working with the green party and that has come to an— period working with the green party and that has come to an end. - period working with the green party and that has come to an end. i- and that has come to an end. i want to this _ and that has come to an end. i want to this morning _ and that has come to an end. i want to this morning appealed _ and that has come to an end. i want to this morning appealed to - and that has come to an end. i want to this morning appealed to friendsl to this morning appealed to friends or colleagues — to this morning appealed to friends or colleagues in— to this morning appealed to friends or colleagues in the _ to this morning appealed to friends or colleagues in the green - to this morning appealed to friends or colleagues in the green party. to this morning appealed to friends or colleagues in the green party to| or colleagues in the green party to recognise — or colleagues in the green party to recognise where _ or colleagues in the green party to recognise where we _ or colleagues in the green party to recognise where we are. _ or colleagues in the green party to recognise where we are. we - or colleagues in the green party to recognise where we are. we are i recognise where we are. we are colleagues — recognise where we are. we are colleagues together, _ recognise where we are. we are colleagues together, arguing. recognise where we are. we are | colleagues together, arguing for independence _ colleagues together, arguing for independence for— colleagues together, arguing for independence for scotland. - colleagues together, arguing for independence for scotland. we. colleagues together, arguing for - independence for scotland. we pushed through— independence for scotland. we pushed through legislation _ independence for scotland. we pushed through legislation where _ independence for scotland. we pushed through legislation where there - independence for scotland. we pushed through legislation where there been i through legislation where there been mutual— through legislation where there been mutual support, _ through legislation where there been mutual support, for— through legislation where there been mutual support, for example - through legislation where there been mutual support, for example we've l mutual support, for example we've taken _ mutual support, for example we've taken 100.000— mutual support, for example we've taken 100,000 young _ mutual support, for example we've taken 100,000 young people - mutual support, for example we've taken 100,000 young people out. mutual support, for example we'vel taken 100,000 young people out of poverty _ taken100,000 young people out of poverty i_ taken 100,000 young people out of poverty. i would _ taken100,000 young people out of poverty. i would ask— taken 100,000 young people out of poverty. i would ask them - taken 100,000 young people out of poverty. i would ask them to - taken 100,000 young people out of poverty. i would ask them to think.

poverty. i would ask them to think very carefully _ poverty. i would ask them to think very carefully ahead _ poverty. i would ask them to think very carefully ahead of _ poverty. i would ask them to think very carefully ahead of this - poverty. i would ask them to think very carefully ahead of this week i poverty. i would ask them to thinkl very carefully ahead of this week of the values — very carefully ahead of this week of the values that _ very carefully ahead of this week of the values that we _ very carefully ahead of this week of the values that we both _ very carefully ahead of this week of the values that we both have - very carefully ahead of this week of the values that we both have and l the values that we both have and about— the values that we both have and about making _ the values that we both have and about making sure _ the values that we both have and about making sure that - the values that we both have and about making sure that we - the values that we both have and about making sure that we can. about making sure that we can deliver— about making sure that we can deliver that _ about making sure that we can deliver that stable _ about making sure that we can. deliver that stable government, supporting _ deliver that stable government, supporting the _ deliver that stable government, supporting the first _ deliver that stable government, supporting the first minister. i. supporting the first minister. i apologise _ supporting the first minister. i apologise for— supporting the first minister. i apologise for what— supporting the first minister. i apologise for what has - supporting the first minister. i. apologise for what has happened supporting the first minister. i- apologise for what has happened this week _ apologise for what has happened this week it _ apologise for what has happened this week it could — apologise for what has happened this week. it could have _ apologise for what has happened this week. it could have happened - apologise for what has happened this week. it could have happened and i week. it could have happened and about— week. it could have happened and about making _ week. it could have happened and about making sure _ week. it could have happened and about making sure that _ week. it could have happened and about making sure that we - week. it could have happened and about making sure that we can. about making sure that we can deliver— about making sure that we can deliver that _ about making sure that we can deliver that stable _ about making sure that we can. deliver that stable government, supporting _ deliver that stable government, supporting the _ deliver that stable government, supporting the first _ deliver that stable government, supporting the first minister. i. supporting the first minister. i apologise _ supporting the first minister. i apologise for— supporting the first minister. i apologise for what— supporting the first minister. i apologise for what has - supporting the first minister. i. apologise for what has happened supporting the first minister. i- apologise for what has happened this week _ apologise for what has happened this week it _ apologise for what has happened this week it could — apologise for what has happened this week. it could have _ apologise for what has happened this week. it could have happened - apologise for what has happened this week. it could have happened in- apologise for what has happened this week. it could have happened in a i week. it could have happened in a government— week. it could have happened in a government and _ week. it could have happened in a government and a _ week. it could have happened in a government and a humza - week. it could have happened in a government and a humza yousafl week. it could have happened in a. government and a humza yousaf to make _ government and a humza yousaf to make sure — government and a humza yousaf to make sure that— government and a humza yousaf to make sure that we _ government and a humza yousaf to make sure that we deliver- government and a humza yousaf to make sure that we deliver the - make sure that we deliver the legislation— make sure that we deliver the legislation that _ make sure that we deliver the legislation that we _ make sure that we deliver the legislation that we all - make sure that we deliver the legislation that we all agree i make sure that we deliver the l legislation that we all agree on make sure that we deliver the - legislation that we all agree on to make _ legislation that we all agree on to make sure — legislation that we all agree on to make sure what _ legislation that we all agree on to make sure what the _ legislation that we all agree on to make sure what the focus... - legislation that we all agree on to make sure what the focus... youl legislation that we all agree on to make sure what the focus... you were a senior figure — make sure what the focus... you were a senior figure in _ make sure what the focus... you were a senior figure in the _ make sure what the focus... you were a senior figure in the snp _ make sure what the focus... you were a senior figure in the snp this - a senior figure in the snp this morning, you are apologising to the greens and saying, please come back? i think we could have handled this in a different— i think we could have handled this in a different way— i think we could have handled this in a different way and _ i think we could have handled this in a different way and i'm - i think we could have handled this in a different way and i'm sure - i think we could have handled this| in a different way and i'm sure the first— in a different way and i'm sure the first minister _ in a different way and i'm sure the first minister would _ in a different way and i'm sure the first minister would say _ in a different way and i'm sure the first minister would say that - in a different way and i'm sure the first minister would say that as i first minister would say that as well _ first minister would say that as well. ~ ., , �* first minister would say that as well. ~ �* ., ., , ., well. well, he hasn't apologised for screen he's — well. well, he hasn't apologised for screen he's apologised _ well. well, he hasn't apologised for screen he's apologised for - well. well, he hasn't apologised for screen he's apologised for the - well. well, he hasn't apologised for screen he's apologised for the hurt | screen he's apologised for the hurt that patrick harvie and lorna slater feel, think very carefully about where we are today, think about the obligation we have to get our climate reduction targets for 2045, things we can work together. i would say to them today, don't throw that

away this week. show your faith and trust in the first minister. we are where we are but we can make sure the government can deliver on the priorities of the people of scotland if we make sure that humza yousaf remains our first minister. can you see a scenario where humza yousaf could pick up the phone to alex salmond and do a deal? humza yousaf has written to — salmond and do a deal? humza yousaf has written to the _ salmond and do a deal? humza yousaf has written to the party _ salmond and do a deal? humza yousaf has written to the party leaders - salmond and do a deal? humza yousaf has written to the party leaders in - has written to the party leaders in holyroodm — has written to the party leaders in holyrood- - -_ has written to the party leaders in holyrood. .. has written to the party leaders in hol rood... �* ., ., , �* , holyrood. .. alex salmond doesn't sit in the scottish _ holyrood. .. alex salmond doesn't sit in the scottish parliament _ holyrood. .. alex salmond doesn't sit in the scottish parliament at - holyrood. .. alex salmond doesn't sit in the scottish parliament at the - in the scottish parliament at the moment. could you see a situation where humza yousaf... that moment. could you see a situation where humza yousaf. . .— moment. could you see a situation where humza yousaf. .. that won't be happening- — where humza yousaf. .. that won't be happening- what _ where humza yousaf. .. that won't be happening. what we _ where humza yousaf. .. that won't be happening. what we are _ where humza yousaf. .. that won't be happening. what we are talking - where humza yousaf. .. that won't be| happening. what we are talking about is humza _ happening. what we are talking about is humza putting _ happening. what we are talking about is humza putting forward _ happening. what we are talking about is humza putting forward the - is humza putting forward the priorities— is humza putting forward the priorities of— is humza putting forward the priorities of the _ is humza putting forward the priorities of the snp - is humza putting forward the - priorities of the snp government and seeing _ priorities of the snp government and seeing where — priorities of the snp government and seeing where we _ priorities of the snp government and seeing where we can— priorities of the snp government and seeing where we can have _ priorities of the snp government and seeing where we can have common. seeing where we can have common cause _ seeing where we can have common cause because— seeing where we can have common cause. because we _ seeing where we can have common cause. because we have _ seeing where we can have common cause. because we have this- seeing where we can have common cause. because we have this two i cause. because we have this two stage _ cause. because we have this two stage system, _ cause. because we have this two stage system, first _ cause. because we have this two stage system, first past - cause. because we have this two stage system, first past the - cause. because we have this two stage system, first past the post members — stage system, first past the post members andm _ stage system, first past the post members and... members, - stage system, first past the post members and... members, let's| stage system, first past the post- members and... members, let's think about— members and... members, let's think about the— members and... members, let's think about the responsibility _ members and... members, let's think about the responsibility to _ members and... members, let's think about the responsibility to deliver - about the responsibility to deliver for the _ about the responsibility to deliver for the people _ about the responsibility to deliver for the people of— about the responsibility to deliver for the people of scotland. - for the people of scotland. interesting _ for the people of scotland. interesting to _ for the people of scotland. interesting to hear - for the people of scotland. interesting to hear what i for the people of scotland. i interesting to hear what you for the people of scotland. - interesting to hear what you hope this will end up, all three of you, thank you so much for now. let's

think then about the local elections that are coming thick and fast. they are happening this thursday in england. there are elections or police and crime commissioners for wales and bm. last year the lib dems had a bumper outing at those polls, they won hundreds of seats and gained 12 councils. the lib dems love nothing more than a photo up, there's ed davey with a sand timer, with time running out for the conservatives, they claim. i'm pleased to say he is back in the studio on this busy morning for news. let's start where we were outwith scotland. if this all collapses for the snp, would your party go into coalition again with labour? lode party go into coalition again with labour? ~ ., ., ., ~ party go into coalition again with labour? ~ ., ., ., ., labour? we are looking forward to scottish parliamentary _ labour? we are looking forward to scottish parliamentary elections. . labour? we are looking forward to i scottish parliamentary elections. we think they should be held. we think the snp has failed scotland. if you look at the nhs in particular but also police and schools, basic services that are vital for scottish

people, the snp has got a dreadful record. they are so obsessed, ideological obsession with independence, has made they are echo has meant they have not focused on the basics. first of all we need that scottish parliamentary election and liberal democrats are arguing that very hard. it the leader of the scottish liberal democrats in this holyrood parliament has been a big advocate of that and he is making it clear today that the first minister wrote and wants talks in bute house with all the opposition parties, alex has made it clear that we can't join those talks is what you won't be joining those talks. no, join those talks is what you won't bejoining those talks. no, we join those talks is what you won't be joining those talks. no, we won't be, there is a good reason for that. i'm afraid the snp has put the national interest of scotland behind their own partisan interests and therefore, we don't think there is anything we can discuss with the snp. we fundamentally disagree with them on a constitutional question and their governments on domestic issues like the health service has been so poor, so that's why alex is

clear, we are not going to go into those talks, we want to scottish parliamentary election. if those talks, we want to scottish parliamentary election. ii in those talks, we want to scottish parliamentary election. if in that election it looks _ parliamentary election. if in that election it looks like _ parliamentary election. if in that election it looks like labour- parliamentary election. if in that election it looks like labour and| election it looks like labour and lib dems could form a coalition, with the lib dems consider working with the lib dems consider working with labour again? first with the lib dems consider working with labour again?— with labour again? first of all we need elections. _ with labour again? first of all we need elections. it's _ with labour again? first of all we need elections. it's a _ with labour again? first of all we need elections. it's a question i with labour again? first of all we need elections. it's a question of| need elections. it's a question of --rincile, need elections. it's a question of principle, coalitions _ need elections. it's a question of principle, coalitions haven't i need elections. it's a question of l principle, coalitions haven't always worked out that well for the lib dems before but the scottish parliament is set up to encourage coalitions. would you want principle if you get to that point, work with labour again? if you get to that point, work with labouragain? i’m if you get to that point, work with labour again?— labour again? i'm not going to -are'ude labour again? i'm not going to prejudge the — labour again? i'm not going to prejudge the election - labour again? i'm not going to prejudge the election which i labour again? i'm not going to | prejudge the election which has labour again? i'm not going to i prejudge the election which has not been called and i'm not going to pre—judge what the scottish liberal democrats will do. what i will say is you are right on one level, that the scottish parliament enjoys pr which means it's a much fairer system. people, it means their votes count and that has led to liberal democrats being in government in the past and doing some great things on things like the health service and the environment.— things like the health service and the environment. let's talk about the environment. let's talk about the health service. _ the environment. let's talk about the health service. today, - the environment. let's talk about the health service. today, you i the environment. let's talk about | the health service. today, you are announcing you want everyone over 70 or with a serious health condition

to have the right to their own named gp, to use the jargon. with respect, i've heard politicians make that promise on a lot of occasions. how would you do it with no extra money and is it feasible in the nhs in 2024? �* , and is it feasible in the nhs in 2024? �*, ., , and is it feasible in the nhs in 2024? n ., , ., and is it feasible in the nhs in 2024? n ., 2024? it's really important people have unnamed _ 2024? it's really important people have unnamed doctor— 2024? it's really important people have unnamed doctor particularlyl 2024? it's really important people| have unnamed doctor particularly if they are over 70 or have a lifelong condition. all the evidence shows it improves the health outcomes. it actually saves the nhs money because people don't go into hospital so often. it's a really sensible policy. you are right, others have promised it before, jeremy hunt did, but i'm afraid what the implemented was a tick box exercise. it's not been implemented. so many people complain they don't see the same gp, so the way to deliver it is to have many more gps. what we have been saying the liberal democrats for some time now and we've worked well health experts on this, we need 8000 more gps. you can't deliver that

overnight. we reckon it would take at least four micro years. it would cost an extra £1 billion every year for those four years.— for those four years. where with that money _ for those four years. where with that money come _ for those four years. where with that money come from? - for those four years. where with that money come from? we i for those four years. where with | that money come from? we have for those four years. where with i that money come from? we have said the tax cuts — that money come from? we have said the tax cuts the _ that money come from? we have said the tax cuts the conservatives - that money come from? we have said the tax cuts the conservatives have i the tax cuts the conservatives have given to the big banks since 2015 should be reversed. that is worth £4 billion a year, notjust paying for this part of our policy to get more gps, so you can get there to a named gps, so you can get there to a named gp but for many other parts of the health and welfare policy. {eli’s health and welfare policy. gps workin: health and welfare policy. gps working now _ health and welfare policy. gps working now who _ health and welfare policy. gps working now who are in practice rejected the government's new contract thing it didn't provide enough funding. if you want more gps in future would you say that gps right now should get more cash? yes car. what right now should get more cash? yes car- what is — right now should get more cash? yes car. what is happening, the settlement for gps this year is less than 2% and that means when i go round in the local elections talking to people, campaigning, meeting gps, they say that they may have to lay off members of staff because the amount of money that the government are putting forward its weight and

be a little. that means the situation which is dire at the moment is going to get worse under the conservatives. that's why liberal democrats and the local election campaign have put the health service and care right at the front along with what we've been saying on sewage and crime. aha, front along with what we've been saying on sewage and crime. a quick rediction, saying on sewage and crime. a quick prediction. good _ saying on sewage and crime. a quick prediction, good night— saying on sewage and crime. a quick prediction, good night on _ saying on sewage and crime. a quick prediction, good night on thursday? | prediction, good night on thursday? i think we'll make a lot of net games. places like wokingham, tunbridge wells, may be places like dorset, we'll do well. we never given number but i'm looking forward to a good night. ed given number but i'm looking forward to a good night-— to a good night. ed davey, it's treat to to a good night. ed davey, it's great to have _ to a good night. ed davey, it's great to have you _ to a good night. ed davey, it's great to have you in _ to a good night. ed davey, it's great to have you in the - to a good night. ed davey, it's. great to have you in the studio, we'll see what happens in the elections on thursday. as we mentioned earlier we'll talk to alex salmon, the leader of the pro—independence alba party. he could hold humza yousaf�*s fete on his hands. thank you forjoining us, mr salmond. what's your price for supporting humza yousaf, getting him out of a hole?—

out of a hole? well, we are in sunny aberdeenshire _ out of a hole? well, we are in sunny aberdeenshire here _ out of a hole? well, we are in sunny aberdeenshire here as _ out of a hole? well, we are in sunny aberdeenshire here as you - out of a hole? well, we are in sunny aberdeenshire here as you see i out of a hole? well, we are in sunny aberdeenshire here as you see so i aberdeenshire here as you see so hopefully we can put some sunlight into scottish politics. ash regan, who leads alber in the scottish parliament, is in a highly influential position given the political arithmetic. she will be meeting with humza yousaf at his invitation, she will take with her some very reasonable positive proposals in which hopefully if the first minister accepts that will help him to get out of a very tight political corner. idh help him to get out of a very tight political corner.— help him to get out of a very tight political corner. ian blackford, the former snp _ political corner. ian blackford, the former snp leader _ political corner. ian blackford, the former snp leader this _ political corner. ian blackford, the former snp leader this morning, i political corner. ian blackford, the i former snp leader this morning, has told us pretty clearly it's not going to happen, there can't be a deal with your party. h0. going to happen, there can't be a deal with your party.— dealwith your party. no, i think what the rejection _ dealwith your party. no, i think what the rejection was - dealwith your party. no, i think what the rejection was was i deal with your party. no, i think i what the rejection was was something about an electoral pact but given i've never made the proposal in the first place that was an overwrite on a sunday newspaper. we are not particularly bothered about that. what ash regan will be taking its measures how we can reemphasise independence as the priority of the scottish government. that's what both alba and the snp should be interested in. how we can move away

from the identity agenda that's taken up so much bandwidth of the scottish government and also how you can return to what we call the people's agenda of education, health, housing and jobs and industry and ash regan has some proposals on how to do that, so these are very reasonable proposals and let's hope that humza yousaf gives it a receptive hearing. his colleaaue gives it a receptive hearing. his colleague ian blackford has been pretty clear this morning that humza yousaf is not going to be picking up the phone to you any time soon, but would anything be a red line? you said the idea of a pact, that is not really a big deal, but would there have to be a promise of concrete moves towards another independence referendum, or new laws on that? well, the specific proposals that ash regan has, she has a bill in the scottish parliament to extend the powers of the parliament to include the legislation for negotiation of independence. we've got every reason to believe that's within the competence of the parliament and

we'd like a discussion around that. and secondly, there is the idea of an independence convention, something that has been widely canvassed by the independence movement, and could put independence back into the front pages and top of the list of priorities of the scottish government. now, all independence supporters should want to see that. whether with alba or with the snp which is why i describe ash regan's ideas is extremely reasonable proposals.- ash regan's ideas is extremely reasonable proposals. have there been any talks — reasonable proposals. have there been any talks between _ reasonable proposals. have there been any talks between the i reasonable proposals. have there been any talks between the snp i reasonable proposals. have there i been any talks between the snp and ash regan or anyone from your party so far? ~ ~ , ., ., so far? well, the key talks are auoin to so far? well, the key talks are going to be — so far? well, the key talks are going to be between _ so far? well, the key talks are going to be between ash i so far? well, the key talks are i going to be between ash regan and humza yousaf in the next couple of days. he has written her an invitation, she has replied. unlike the liberal democrats, she's replied politely and in the affirmative and the outcome of the key talks will decide the outcome of next week. we are hoping for a positive outcome, at least, i am, are hoping for a positive outcome, at least, iam, that's are hoping for a positive outcome, at least, i am, that's why we are putting forward constructive

proposals. we obviously have to prepare that things don't work out in which case there could be an election in scotland and other possibilities as well and that's why the alba executive meeting this afternoon, to prepare for an election, just in case there is not a positive outcome of the talks. this a positive outcome of the talks. as a positive outcome of the talks. as a backer of independence you've devoted so much of your life to it, would you really act to think an snp government? isn't perhaps what's going on here that the leader of a tiny party that didn't win any seats in 2021 are actuallyjust enjoying this moment rather a lot and that's what it's about?— what it's about? well, alba are rroin to what it's about? well, alba are going to win — what it's about? well, alba are going to win seats _ what it's about? well, alba are going to win seats at _ what it's about? well, alba are going to win seats at the - what it's about? well, alba are going to win seats at the next i going to win seats at the next scottish election whenever it is. a very interesting poll showed in terms of preference for first minister alba 15% across scotland and leading in the north—east of scotland, and as you know the arithmetic at the scottish parliament system would give alba around 20 seats in the scottish parliament but we've got to think

what's in the interests of scotland and what's in the interest of scotland in my estimation is to get independence back to the top of the political agenda, to move away the culture wars and identity politics that are so divisive in scottish society and get the scottish parliament onto what we call the people's agenda ofjobs, housing, health, education and above all investment in key scottish industries and the energy sector. that is the proposal is that ash regan will be taking to the first minister. �* , ., minister. oko, we'll see what the outcome is. _ minister. oko, we'll see what the outcome is, thank _ minister. oko, we'll see what the outcome is, thank you _ minister. oko, we'll see what the outcome is, thank you for - minister. oko, we'll see what the| outcome is, thank you for bearing with the aberdeenshire rate, it's been great to have you on the programme and we'll follow with interest what happens in the next couple of days. it's notjust a big election year for us. in the us, joe biden and donald trump are slugging it out in whatjust might be one of the most consequential white house races in history — with trump in court, and biden under fire from students protesting against what's happening in gaza across the us. i've been talking to one of president biden's closest allies and most prominent democrats — the former speaker of

the house, nancy pelosi. there's complete justification for speaking out against what is happening there. what's happening in gaza, it just challenges the conscience of the world. the starvation, the dehydration, the malnutrition. and now look — rising in some parts of gaza... famine. famine almost is unforgivable in terms of the toll it takes on children. in our country, though, we would like to see some of that enthusiasm recognise hamas as a terrorist organisation that did a barbaric thing in israel on october 7th. israel has a right to defend itself. the way — the manner in which they are doing it is really challenging because netanyahu has never been an agent for peace. i'm not a big fan of his, but...

but he couldn't have done things worse than tens of thousands — whatever the figure may be — of people dying, children malnourished, and the uncertainty that is there. and that's what people are speaking out about. but do you understand why young people are protesting in such a way? are the tactics being used on campuses the right ones? when they go beyond campuses and block the golden gate bridge or something for a long period of time, and people can't go to the doctor or the hospital or to whatever is urgent in their lives, it doesn't win favour. it doesn't win favour. it may attract press, but it does not attract favour. how can you ever criticise demonstrations on campuses? that's a way of life for us in america. there is so much at stake right now — whether it's in the middle east, whether it's in terms of what's going on in ukraine — and you talk very passionately about the need to defend democracy. one of the things you've argued very strongly for is against the social—media platform tiktok.

the us is now taking stronger action — strong action — against that, but what do you think is the answer to the problem of democracy being under such strain? well, i don't thi... i mean, i think that the tiktok issue is a security issue. and it got the biggest vote of any of the votes on saturday — 380 votes in the bill that had that in there to entice people to their point of view. but the most important thing we can do is to support the people in ukraine who have fight, are fighting for their...their democracy and, in doing so, for democracy writ large. what we have to do in the united states is win the election. win the election, because there are elements on the other side that are undermining principles of democracy in our own country and not supportive of democracy elsewhere. yet what concerns americans most is inflation, job creation and immigration.

and when you look at the polling, former president trump leads president biden in those three categories very significantly. so are voters wrong? if the president — current president's record is so good, why aren't people convinced? well, the polls may be wrong. why are we identifying people with the polls? the polls were wrong in the last election — they said we're going to lose 30 or 40 seats in the congressional races. we lost five in new york, and we'll win them back. joe biden will win. his numbers are improving — if polls mean that much, his numbers are improving. but the thing is, is that elections are campaigns — that's a war term, and that's what we're in. we decide to win. we make every decision in favour of winning. we marshal ourforces, our strength, and that's all going very well for us. so i do think that we could do better in convincing people that whatjoe biden did in creating nine millionjobs, as opposed

to a former president who lost more jobs than any president in history, was to make that message clear. but this election does feel very much in the balance. you say, for the sake of democracy, you have to win. and we will. but many people seem ready to turn to donald trump again because they don't feel they have a good alternative. and there are plenty of loyal democrat voters — and many undecideds — who aren't convinced by president biden. in terms of democracy, of course, that's related, but that's not central to it, except if... depending on what the chinese government is doing with the algorithms and the rest of that. and whether that's because of his gaffes, or whether that's because of his age, or whether that's because of his visible frailty, democrats sometimes worry that he's not a commander—in —chief in a time of war and real threats. what do you say to that?

i see it differently. i see a president who has a vision for america that is a great one, that's strong. i see a president who knows because he's been there, has the experience, gained the wisdom from his age and being there, and that he knows what will work, and he knows how to do it because he's been a legislator a long time. and most importantly, what's in his heart for the american people — more empathy than you can name. and hejust... that has to come across in the elections. you don't think, then, his visible frailty is an issue? you don't think it's a problem? i don't get the point. this is a great american president. he's younger than i am, so i don't know what the point is about age. it's a question about frailty, though, isn't it? there's never a question about whetherjanet yellen's too old for the job, or there's not — doesn't seem to be a question about president trump's age. people often look at president biden and they wonder about his frailty. but i know that you know him well. they're voting for him. does it make him cross?

they're voting for him in the election. when people see him, they come back and they say, "why do people say that about him?" he's has humour and vitality and knowledge and recognition. ihad... i had somebody ask me about him and i said, wejust had him in san francisco for an event. he gave a fabulous presentation. no notes. he met the people in the... ..photo line and then saw them at the table and remembered them. no name tags. and he was funny. no kidding. during the the years of president trump, politics in america became more and more toxic, it seemed, almost every day. you were called crazy nancy repeatedly. your own husband was attacked during that period by someone who demonised you. do you have fear of a donald trump return to the white house? yes, for many reasons.

political policy. personally, for many people, because he's out to get. but you said they called me crazy. what... understand this about the other guy — he's a master of projection. he called hillary crooked hillary. he's got how many — 96 felony charges? he calls joe sleepyjoe. he's asleep in court in his own trial. he calls me crazy nancy, and he's crazier than you would ever want to know as somebody who had been president of the united states. but the beat goes on — every time he calls somebody something, you know, he recognises what he is and he thinks that's a weakness so he'll project it on somebody else. so when you said that guy attacked my husband, demonised me — no, the republican party demonised me. donald trump demonised me. but being here, having a conversation about defending democracy, though, do you think voters are wrong if they find president trump an appealing prospect?

are voters wrong if they want to vote for him again? are they wrong if they want to vote for the republican party in 2024? well, it's not a question of whether they�*re wrong, we just disagree. it's interesting. he exploited the populism message, and then went into the office and passed one bill giving 83% of the benefit. a tax bill gave 83% of the benefits to the top 1% — adding $2 trillion to the national debt, and then complaining if we want to feed the children. his role abroad, though... two of ourformer prime ministers — borisjohnson and liz truss — have both said the world was safer under donald trump. what do you say to them? i don't know what they're talking about, and it may be in their interest to talk about that. i didn't know they said that, and i'm sorry they did —

because safer for what? safer for billionaires not to have to pay taxes? safe for people who dislike people of colour and lgbtq and women in a rising situation? safer for what? saferfor white men? safer for white people? what was it safer for? i came from baltimore, our national anthem was written there, and my favourite line in it is, "proof through the night that our flag was still there." and that flag is our symbol of democracy, with liberty and justice for all. not for tax breaks for the wealthiest people in america, or discrimination against people of colour. liberty and justice for all. nancy pelosi, one of the most prominent democrats in the land. we have had such a busy morning and we have had such a busy morning and we have not much time for the end. sometimes we have a nice chat but i will ask you all a specific question. will humza yousaf be first minister in scotland by the end of the week? i

minister in scotland by the end of the week? , ., the week? i believe he will. i would sa to all the week? i believe he will. i would say to all party _ the week? i believe he will. i would say to all party leaders _ the week? i believe he will. i would say to all party leaders to _ the week? i believe he will. i would say to all party leaders to see i the week? i believe he will. i would say to all party leaders to see if i say to all party leaders to see if we can build consensus, make sure the government can do its job and we will go through to... sass the government can do its 'ob and we will go through to. . .i will go through to... as long as it is not will go through to... as long as it is rrot alex _ will go through to... as long as it is not alex salmond _ will go through to... as long as it is not alex salmond because i will go through to... as long as it is not alex salmond because she | will go through to... as long as it i is not alex salmond because she is thatis is not alex salmond because she is that is not happening is that we know we said our door is open to all of the parties. alex salmond will not be at that table. are you feeling the election is about to be called or westminster is going around and around chasing its tail getting excited about some election? a, , , tail getting excited about some election? c, , , a, tail getting excited about some election?_ this | election? chasing its tail. this time next _ election? chasing its tail. this time next week _ election? chasing its tail. this time next week because - election? chasing its tail. this i time next week because empties election? chasing its tail. this - time next week because empties are expected to have a hard time at local elections, do you think there will be a challenge to rishi sunak? i don't. i don't think this is about personalities. _ i don't. i don't think this is about personalities, it _ i don't. i don't think this is about personalities, it is _ i don't. i don't think this is about personalities, it is about - i don't. i don't think this is about personalities, it is about policy, i personalities, it is about policy, about— personalities, it is about policy, about delivering _ personalities, it is about policy, about delivering for— personalities, it is about policy, about delivering for the - personalities, it is about policy, about delivering for the public. i personalities, it is about policy, | about delivering for the public. i think_ about delivering for the public. i think the — about delivering for the public. i think the party— about delivering for the public. i think the party needs _ about delivering for the public. i think the party needs better- about delivering for the public. i- think the party needs better answers to the _ think the party needs better answers to the challenges _ think the party needs better answers to the challenges facing _ think the party needs better answers to the challenges facing the - to the challenges facing the countrx _ to the challenges facing the country. one _ to the challenges facing the country. one of— to the challenges facing the country. one of those, - to the challenges facing the country. one of those, as. to the challenges facing the. country. one of those, as we to the challenges facing the - country. one of those, as we have discussed — country. one of those, as we have discussed this— country. one of those, as we have discussed this morning, _ country. one of those, as we have discussed this morning, is - country. one of those, as we have discussed this morning, is on - discussed this morning, is on migration _ discussed this morning, is on migration i_ discussed this morning, is on migration. ithink— discussed this morning, is on migration. i think the - discussed this morning, is on migration. i think the single i discussed this morning, is on - migration. i think the single best thing _ migration. i think the single best thing the — migration. i think the single best thing the party— migration. i think the single best thing the party could _ migration. i think the single best thing the party could do - migration. i think the single best thing the party could do after- migration. i think the single best. thing the party could do after those elections _ thing the party could do after those elections is — thing the party could do after those elections is to _ thing the party could do after those elections is to have _ thing the party could do after those elections is to have a _ thing the party could do after those elections is to have a stronger, - elections is to have a stronger, clearer— elections is to have a stronger, clearer message _ elections is to have a stronger, clearer message to _ elections is to have a stronger, clearer message to our - elections is to have a stronger, clearer message to our voters, i elections is to have a stronger, . clearer message to our voters, to people — clearer message to our voters, to people who — clearer message to our voters, to people who voted _ clearer message to our voters, to

people who voted for _ clearer message to our voters, to people who voted for brexit - clearer message to our voters, to people who voted for brexit and i clearer message to our voters, to - people who voted for brexit and want to see _ people who voted for brexit and want to see us _ people who voted for brexit and want to see us controlling _ people who voted for brexit and want to see us controlling and _ people who voted for brexit and want to see us controlling and reducing - to see us controlling and reducing migration— to see us controlling and reducing migration and _ to see us controlling and reducing migration and i_ to see us controlling and reducing migration and i have _ to see us controlling and reducing migration and i have produced - to see us controlling and reducing migration and i have produced a l migration and i have produced a plan — migration and i have produced a lan... ., ~ ., migration and i have produced a lan... ., ., migration and i have produced a plan... take it out of the courts of human rights. _ plan... take it out of the courts of human rights, trumpet _ plan... take it out of the courts of human rights, trumpet style. - plan... take it out of the courts of human rights, trumpet style. and| plan... take it out of the courts of| human rights, trumpet style. and i roll from wes _ human rights, trumpet style. and i roll from wes streeting _ human rights, trumpet style. and i roll from wes streeting and - human rights, trumpet style. and i roll from wes streeting and you are rolling your eyes, why?— roll from wes streeting and you are rolling your eyes, why? democracy is under threat — rolling your eyes, why? democracy is under threat all _ rolling your eyes, why? democracy is under threat all around _ rolling your eyes, why? democracy is under threat all around the _ rolling your eyes, why? democracy is under threat all around the world. . under threat all around the world. it is not _ under threat all around the world. it is not a — under threat all around the world. it is not a time for democracies like the — it is not a time for democracies like the uk _ it is not a time for democracies like the uk and us to be looking inwards— like the uk and us to be looking inwards instead of outwards, to preserve — inwards instead of outwards, to preserve rights, freedoms, the rule of law— preserve rights, freedoms, the rule of law and _ preserve rights, freedoms, the rule of law and democracy internationally.- of law and democracy internationally. of law and democracy internationall . ~ ., ., ~ internationally. we have talked about lots of _ internationally. we have talked about lots of big _ internationally. we have talked about lots of big ideas - internationally. we have talked about lots of big ideas this - about lots of big ideas this morning, great to have the three of you with us. a huge thank you to all my guests. and thank you to you for watching at home. normally when we say goodbye, i take an educated guess at what the next week might bring. with so much going on, i might not hazard that. dojoin me on thursday night for the overnight elections results. and i'll see you back here next sunday — when there just might be

a new first minister in scotland, there will be hundreds of new councillors, and it's not impossible there could be a challenge to the prime minister. from some concerned conservative mps. from some concerned conservative mps. i from some concerned conservative mps. i couldn't help speculating after all. see you then.

live from london. this is bbc news. israel's foreign minister

says his country's military could suspend its planned incursion into rafah — if hostages are released. conservative mp, daniel poulter defects to labour, saying he disagrees with the conservative party's health policies. the tesla chief, elon musk, has landed in beijing where he's expected to meet chinese officials to discuss electric vehicles. and a gold pocket watch worn by the wealthiest passenger on the titanic sells for six times the asking price. hello. i'm catherine byaruhanga. we start in the middle east, where efforts are being made to try to bring about a ceasefire in southern gaza. israel's foreign minister has said a planned ground assault on the southern gaza city of rafah, could be suspended — if a deal emerges to free

the hostages still held by hamas.