back in 1929 and we are now in 2023 and it's the first time a black woman has ever topped the charts as a songwriter. if it was not about race, how did we get this far without black women seeing success and the genre? if there is some other explanation i'm happy to find it and we can figure out whatever to vote is and fix it and move forward, because the only thing is i wanted to get better. i think a lot of people are saying we want to call out or top down, but criticizing country music because i love it and i want to feel safe in it, and i want people like tracy chapman to have her own success without somebody else having to bring her to the top. >> it harkens back to james baldwin's famous quote, i love this country more than any other for that reason i reserve the right to perpetually criticize it. holly g, thank you so much, i appreciate it. cnn tonight starts right now with john berman. hey john, i have a new song

stuck in your head. enjoy. >> thank you so much, tracey chapman performed in the commonwealth of massachusetts. in the meantime, the special counsel of jared kushner, is ron desantis the new jeb bush explanation point. it turns out the safest place on earth to hide your staff is the white house. i am john berman and this is cnn tonight, or seen in very nearly tomorrow. tomorrow we might still be counting the new developments in the investigation into donald trump, because they have been coming in every few minutes. jared kushner upcoming before the grand jury, hope hicks before the grand jury, alyssa farah griffin before federal prosecutors, and we will get to all of it. but at the center of it, three major questions that perhaps reveal what the special counsel is up to. now, a warning to our viewers, these might seem insultingly obvious or simple, but they are legally pivotal. number one, did donald trump know he lost the election? number two, did donald trump

say he lost the election? number three, how on earth could he have not have known he lost the election and are you actually serious this could be a viable defense? this is at the forefront of tonight as cnn has confirmed that the president's son-in-law testified before the grand jury investigating donald trump's actions around january 6th. at the new york times reports that he was asked, jared kushner was asked, if he ever heard trump acknowledge heost the election. the times that kushner has maintained that it was his impression that mr. trump truly believed the election was stolen, according to a person briefed on the matter. however, we also know that former trump communication center -- illicit curving has been interviewed by federal prosecutors, she earlier told the january six committee that trump said to her after the election, quote, can you believe i lost to joe biden? there are also new developments in the mar-a-lago documents case with the special counsel lashing out against the trump team for the request to delay

the trial. we are gonna have more on that shortly. first, what did trump know and how could he not have known it? with me here, michael cohen, donald trump's former attorney host of the mega couple podcast, and author of revenge. but first, michael standby. i want to bring in cnn senior legal analyst elliott honan. i want to break down this line of questioning, i want to set the legal framework for this discussion. why is the special counsel asking people what did donald trump know he lost the election? >> they're trying to establish intent, which is the hardest thing for a prosecutor to do. the best possible way that you can establish that donald trump knew he lost is if he acknowledges that he lost. we saw a lot of testimony in the january six committee for people who said, well, donald trump was told he lost. bill barr told him that he lost, ivanka trump told him that he lost. that is okay, but the problem with that is that there were other people, maybe delusional people, but other people, rudy giuliani, sydney powell, telling him you didn't lose,

there has been massive fraud and you need to fight it. the best possible proof that he knew what he was doing was wrong, that he had to know it was unlawful, is if he acknowledges it as alyssa, our colleague testimony seems to establish. >> let me play testimony before january six committee from both alyssa farah griffin and joint chiefs of staff mark milley, who did suggest that trump said some version of he lost or he knew. listen. >> so, we're gonna go over this discussion going on. and the president says, but i think he says words to the effect of we lost, we need to let that issue go to the next guy. meaning president biden. >> i remember, maybe a week after the election was called, i popped into the oval just to give the president the headline to see how he was doing and he was looking at the tv and he said can you believe that i lost to this effing guy? >> so, what you do, is you

produce that testimony to a jury or a grand jury and you say do you believe it? do you believe alyssa farah griffin and mark milley, there you go, there is the intent. it is a crucial part of the case, so that is why this testimony is so important. there might be other testimony with jared kushner saying i don't think he actually thought he lost, we might be getting into a pistol optical questions about what is in his mind, how does one ever know what they know? >> so to be so clueless, or to be so misinformed, or misguided, to think, or believe, that you lost the election or won the election i should say, that could be a viable defense? >> i think the category would fall under, legally, what we call advice of counsel. here i am, donald trump, and have these lawyers rudy giuliani, sydney powell, telling me that i can fight this. , ortiz example of pressuring mike pence, well john eastman, constitutional scholars, former supreme court clerk, he's telling me that the vice president does have this authority and i can rely on that. that is the defense. >> councillor, standby.

michael cohen, obviously you were personna not or for sometime before any of this actually happened. however you spent a lot of time with donald trump. you know how he talks, you know how he thinks. as you look at this do you honestly think that he did not know or believe that he lost the election? >> he never thought that he would lose to joe biden. that is true. he never thought he could possibly lose. he considers joe biden to be a loser and, as a loser, how could he, as when, or lose to a loser? that is the circular nonsense that goes on inside of donald trump's head. what he is going to end up saying, how they are going to prove intent by donald, it is a very difficult -- elina have had this conversations dozens of times. dozens of times. where i have always said that donald is going to play the intent card. he believes he won. if he doesn't believe it, you will never know because that is what a narcissistic a sociopath will do.

they convince themselves that they are right, even though they know they are wrong, but they will never admitted and they will continue to perpetuate the lie again and again and again, until such time as everybody believes ally. >> you around him for a long time when he said a lot of things that weren't true. did he believe that not true things he was saying when you around? him >> no, but he will convince himself by saying it over and over. it is a stall of mystic approach. >> elliott, if i can bring back in, i am a narcissistic sociopath. is that a viable defense? >> i don't think it is, and i want to make it clear that you cannot to say my attorney told me something, hence it is over. you can't get away with anything. it has to be within the realm of reason. you can't say my attorney said it was okay to shoot that person, to rob bank, and so there will be an argument about was this advice it least reasonably probable? michael cohen knows this, you lived this, donald trump is an expert at using his attorneys as blast shields. >> as scapegoats. he will also then turn around

and attack general milley. he will attack alyssa farah griffin. that is what he does, he starts it off with the attack. he continues the attack, he gets his acolytes in order to continue the attack, in order to discredit them. and then he will continue to do this. they just have an ax to grind with me. if they do not want me to be president again, because i fired them. you will make up some story that we all know is not true. but he will try to convince you that that story is true. >> so jared kushner was in the hot speech before the grand jury, someone you know also. how do you think he felt about being there? >> this is puzzling to me because we all have to acknowledge that jack smith is a consummate professional and being someone who has been before the grand jury, why would jack smith bring jared kushner -- >> not before this check grandeur? >> >> to a different grandeur, the manhattan d.a.. >> why would jack smith bring jared kushner to the table unless he already knew what

jared is going to say. elie of course can speak to that at greater length. but there is no way that jack smith brought jared in there to impeach the information or the testimony that he has. that is just not how the grand jury system works. >> the reason you butchered commissioner in the grand jury is to find out what he has to say. you can use the grand jury to explore. if you take a witness who you know it might be a problem for, you might give testimony favorable to the defendant, great. let me find that out now, let me know what is coming. i think that all highlights why this is a more difficult case one that -- the documents case. the documents case, you can prove its intent by his statements, his effort to obstruct, his audiotapes of him talking about the information. it is a good example of why this is a trickier case for prosecutors. >> i agree with him. i cannot argue with ali on that one. >> jared kushner, how do you think he feels about being pulled back in? like godfather three, every

time the things that he is out he gets pulled back in? >> he is unhappy about it. the entire familial relationship has gone south. you see jarrett and even into stepping away. i said it on cnn program with alison camerota about a year ago, that's hard to believe that jared and ivanka were the inside mulls. not that i have any information to prove it. >> you think they were the ones talking -- >> yes, because jerry does not want to see the inside of a prison cell. he knows what it is like through his father's eyes, he knows how difficult it was for him and his siblings. he doesn't want to do the same thing to his children. i have always believed it and, especially the fact that jarred was always known in the white house as the secretary of everything. with all of the things that went on, how come there is no investigation into jared? he comes out, several months later, he has got two billion from the saudis, a couple hundred millions from the other gulf coast countries, there is no investigation into the

relationship from him and saudi when he has absolutely no capability and he has never run anybody money before. to the point that the finance committee of the saudi investment authority said he does not meet our criteria until mohammad bin salman turned around and said, give him the money. but there is no investigation. >> there is one thing that you just said, elie, that i want you to weigh in on here. michael was suggesting that jared will tell the truth or say whatever is really happening to the prosecutors because he does not want to end up in prison because his father charlie kushner served time. jared is going to be careful to be honest to the investigators. doesn't that mean that if he is telling him that donald trump always believed he won the election? >> there are things you have to tell the truth about and things that you know that people will never build a cross-check. there's a difference between sort of lying about a disprove bowl fact verse is, maybe shading your impression of what may have been in someone's

mind. the reporting is that it was always jared's impression that donald trump actually thought he won, it does a little different than him saying we had a heart to heart about it and he was absolutely convinced. >> you've been around him a long time, does he slip up and say things, like alyssa, our friend alyssa farah, i can't believe i lost to the sky? do you think it's possible that at some point during -- that i lost and this is really putting me off? >> he probably sat there moaning and growing and groaning to anyone who will listen. he will speak to anyone in order to put out a grievance or to complain about something, which is probably -- how could i have lost, i can't believe that i lost. tim you will turn around and say that he never believed it and, again, as kelly just said it is one of those facts that is not prove-able unless he comes out and tells the truth. donald trump is never going to tell the truth. >> okay, elie, if the special

counsel's been going down these various avenues and has conflicting testimony about whether donald trump did or didn't say he lost the election, did or didn't believe he lost the election, does that close of any avenue of prosecution? >> not necessarily. if you have testimony that it is a mixed bag like that you do have the right and discretion as a prosecutor to say, not just i believe side as opposed to side be, but i think side is more -- a backed up by other evidence. this is important, as a prosecutor, if you get evidence that is favorable to a defendant you have to turn that over. that is part of your obligation. >> -- this gets into michaels beef. >> other crimes that the special counsel that could prosecute that would not require belize or knowledge that he lost the election? >> i think there are. even if donald trump genuinely thought he won the election, there is a point that you cannot go beyond, you cannot threaten an election official. you cannot extort or shake down an election official, even if you think you have actually won.

>> donald trump doesn't care about rules and he doesn't care about the law. he will push that limit to the line, past the line, and then passed that line and try to pull it back and claim it was never me, it was somebody else. >> elie, news late today that the special counsel's office has filed before the judge its argument that the trial, in the mar-a-lago documents case, should not be delayed until after the election, which is what the trump team says they want to do. some people described it as a scathing response. they note that there is not as much testimony and documents to go throughe is not as much footage to go through as the defense team says, they can see the jury in time. >> it's a lukewarm response in my view. ot a ripping apart in my view. les just look at this objectively. don trump's team, let's forget about the political issue. just pure facts here, don trump's defense team says that we have been given 800,000 documents, nine months of video footage, there is no trial that has gone to trial from

indictment to trial in anything like six months. think of examples of cases that have taken three years and all the doj says, there is sharp language, but they say there's 800,000 documents but we told them which 4000 of the most important. that doesn't count it, you have to go through the mall as a defense lawyer. i should say, even doj is unable to show a single classified document that everyone to trial in six months. >> does trump ever think he's going to trial on this? >> what he is going to try to do is, right out of the trump playbook, delay, delay, delay. we in the action where he is swing you forfeit million dollars. as the plaintiff, we have now asked for his deposition. delay, delay, delay. they want to do it 90 days after the election. but to brings the case and then decides they want to do it in 90 days after the election, which is like in 17 months? but that is the donald trump playbook. in his mind he thinks that he is going to be able to delay the system, they will do whatever they can, they will have his lawyers file more frivolous actions and motions until such time as the campaign will be in full force, it will

already be super tuesday, it will be, he will be heavy on the trail, and he will claim that. it is unfair that they are impeding on his ability to run. >> michael cohen, thank you so much for coming in. elie holden, thank you as always. next, why are ron desantis donors sniffing around elsewhere? a, he is being manhandled by donald trump. be, the war on woke. see, he is a little awkward. the, why put a fight with disney? ♪ when you have chronic kidney disease...

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donors among stumbles. from rolling stone earlier, murdaugh's start to sow ron desantis. they can smell a loser. you know the old saying? with thoughts like this who needs enemies. that is awkward, the terrific political ripon to relay -- how the desantis hype cycle has followed the 2015 scott walker trajectory, almost beat for beat. now that is not a comparison any republican would want. walker went nowhere, he is on the mount rushmore of gop candidates who are supposed to be all that and turned out all doug. jeb bush, explanation point. you can clap now. or for history buffs, john conley 90 80 who spent upwards of $11 million, 40 million in today's taller, and ended up in a single delegate. it's a lot of shade for desantis who is still number two in all of the polls, with all kinds of money. but, the political piece says

donors, quote, faith in the florida governor has been shaken by early campaign missteps in his hard-line positions on abortion, trans gendered rights, and other culture war issues. so that might be the white, but how about the what next? well cnn has confirmed that donors, including one time desantis backers, our meeting with south carolina senators tim scott. both desantis and tim scott will be at the family leadership summit tomorrow in iowa. yes, tomorrow's news tonight. and that could be awkward. why? because nbc reports that there is a new desantis campaign memo that mentions scott, it reads, quote, while tim scott has earned a serious look at this stage, his bio is lacking -- that our electorate is looking for in the next president. we expect tim scott to receive appropriate scrutiny in the weeks ahead. if you follow the bouncing ball there, desantis donors meet with scott, desantis campaign swipes that's got. there are few coincidences in

politics. so, just how awkward will it be in iowa? with me now is jay michaelson, he is a rolling stone columnist and david bourbon, a cnn political commentator and former trump campaign advisor. gentlemen, i appreciate you being with us. i'm going to ask this if you bear with me in the form of multiple choice questions, we've been doing that. why are desantis donors sniffing around elsewhere? a, because he is being met manhandled by donald trump. b, because the war on woke. c, because he was a little awkward? d, why pick a fight with disney? >> where is he? >> all of the above. you can pick. that >> interesting john, you talk about the nbc reporting earlier in this piece. if you read the memo, the memo itself says that it was an embargo for desantis's friends and family, that the strategy is to do more earned media and educate more electorate about the benefits of ron desantis. one, that he is a veteran, and to that he is a dad. when they find that out he is going to magically rise in the polls. that it's basically what the

memo said, and he said that we're saving our money, we're not going to put any money into super tuesday, we're gonna focus on early states. i've got a little bit of news, they are not gonna have to worry about super tuesday if they don't get focused on these early states and do a little better than just being a dad and veteran. we will see, it is a long way away, but things are not going so well. >> i've covered a lot of campaigns and in every campaign that was not going well, at some point to the campaign staff says that if they only do the candidate better he would be doing better. although, in this case it doesn't actually seem to be the case. >> the more voters get to know ron desantis, the more he can single bit of or a little bit awkward and not quite, maybe he looks better on paper than actually in-person. and, personally for me, i feel a sort of mixed emotions. on the one hand desantis is kind of a weak candidate and so for somebody on the progressive side i would've loved to see him in the general. this is someone who is causing real harm to vulnerable populations. and i was concerned, being in the lgbtq community myself and caring about these issues, i was really worried. people are not really quite on

the same page around these issues, and there is a lot of space for respectful disagreement. but desantis didn't do that, he went away to the extreme banning books, bending all kinds of medical care, and just going way, way beyond where the center is. and so i am gratified really that that has been rejected. >> is that upsetting to donors? >> here's another interesting thing to think about. the 2020 elections, the 2022 elections occur, ron desantis is the hero. he did great in 22, right? trump is blamed for the downfall of the party. and so november, the day after the election, ron desantis is going to be president. then he did something unusual, if he doesn't become the president, you better look back and lament this. i'm not going to get in until after the legislation is over, and then everything kind of went quiet and desantis world. and then trump got indicted, he became super popular, again and people forgot about ron desantis. when he got in the race he was already baked at that point. so that period, i think it is going to come back to haunt him.

>> he left the vacuum there. question number two, why is tim scott a unique threat to ron desantis? a, because he is more likable if you believe that. b, he represents the new republican party? c, because south carolina is a key early state? d because he has some establishment support? there are people in the senate who likes him. >> it's also want to see not. he is not a strident culture warrior. we are talking before he came on, his positions actually are on the conservative end of the party, but he is not staking out this kind of a very coarse position like desantis did. so he has got a softer touch, a more appealing personality. he has a very compelling personal narrative. >> that's progressive are you more scared about tim scott? >> absolutely. i'm scared and not scared. it's tough for progressives in this election. on the one hand, right, you want to keep the white house. on the other hand the risk of getting donald trump as the nominee is so terrifying, it keeps me up at night. >> you could vote for cornell west, he's going to be good. >> i want to jump ahead to some reporting from isaac over, some

terrific reporting on tanks twist in the democratic party about the biden campaign. a couple of quotes from this piom isaac's piece. mp wins next november and everybody says how does ithappes wiwhat was the biden campaign doing in december of 2023? here's another quote, i'm not what sure which is hard, are people -- getting people to folks on the campaign are getting people excited about it? so, multiple choice. the democratic -- concerns about the biden campaign are? >> we talk too much on these. things >> a, spot on. b, predictably because these are democrats. c, what you get with an eight-year-old candidate. d, an example of how people have underestimated biden again and again. >> look, i don't think this is necessarily about age specifically. paul mccartney is 82, bob dylan is 83, everybody is different. but the fact is that joe biden does not seem to have the kind of control that he used to have. he doesn't have the sharpness he used to have, and we have to be careful. we don't want to stigmatize somebody based on their age.

but at the same time this is a reality with this candidate, that we do not know how he is going to perform on the debate stage, we don't know who he is even going to be, let's say 12 months from now. and it is very worrying because so much feels at stake, especially if he is running against donald trump. >> and some of the reporting there in the sand -- cnn these, david axelrod, our colleague has said to me personally and in this report, he is concerned. there is no apparatus around, biden is not raising money, a dozen of the staff. it doesn't give the appearance that he is running. and people are looking at the numbers, the fundraising numbers are going to come out and they're go to compare them to the obama numbers and saying he should have raised more money. so there is a great reason to be alarmed. plus he is using the baby stairs on air force one every day now. >> i would take the elevator if i could. david, it's great to see you both. thank you for playing. we really appreciate it. so you want to leave a bag of cocaine somewhere where you will never get caught? how about the white house. that is next.

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so in the breakfast club, judge nelson hides his bag of illegal drugs down the pants of man anthony michael hall. it worked, but barely. it turns out a much safer place to hide your stash is the white house. last night we told you tomorrow's news would be about the bag of cocaine found at the white house and now tomorrow is tonight and the secret service says that they do not know who left the cocaine there, and they will never know who left the cocaine there. who needs your best friends sock drawer when you have 1600 pennsylvania avenue?

they say too many people pass by the spotted found, there's no identifying evidence on the bag itself, and no cameras pointed at the cubby where it was discovered. let's bring in cnn law enforcement analyst and former secret service agent jonathan wackrow. i think a lot of the pool of the question, okay now what? >> really, no camera pointed anywhere near the kabul where it was found? is there anywhere in the white house that does a blind spot like that? >> it is a blind thought, but for blind spot by design. when you look at the hearing that they had today, the briefing, part of it was behind closed doors, but part of it was classified and there's a reason why there are cameras in certain locations of the white house that are part of the security structure and not in others. now you have to think about, with the location that this item was found and the cubby, right on the ground floor of the west wing, who comes in and out of that door? what meetings are being held right there? do you want those interactions

video recorded? because people who are coming in maybe going to the situation room, they made the intelligence officials that are meeting with maybe foreign counterparts. there is a designed to the white house, in this instance, that design did not pick up a criminal act. from a threat perspective, the white house is extremely secure, they address their threats every single day whether they are weapons, explosives, -- from a criminal aspect of the secret service now has to go back and redesign some programs to make sure this doesn't happen again. >> hold that thought for a second, i want to play reaction from a republican congressman to this revelation, or lack of revelation today. listen. >> they don't know who it is, and it is a cotei an, this thins ridiculous. >> all right, so to what extent is that political outrage verse is procedural outrage? what is the right thing for oversight purposes, to be mad about when it comes to?

this >> let's define what failure is. the three primary -- of the secret service at the white house is to ensure that the complex and the president is protected from threats. this is the introduction of cocaine into this environment was a criminal, act it is not primarily what they do, and so if you are saying that the secret service failed, no. on the identification of the substance, they thought it was a threat. they thought it was -- or anthrax. they took every appropriate measures to mitigate that situation and secure the white house. once it was determined that it was a substance that was not of harm to the complex or the president, then it became a criminal investigation. so where is the failure? is the failure in the criminal investigation? because the secret service laid out why today they could not solve and make attribution. one, there was no forensic evidence. there is no latent prints, no dna evidence, no video evidence, how are you able to identify the pool of almost 600

potential people as to who did it in the attribution there? the reality is that the secret service had been telegraphing the difficulty of this investigation from day one, on making attribution. you just may not be able to solve it. >> the think it's gonna be hard to get what cocaine in the white house after this? >> slightly harder, john. >> i just wanted to know, for factual purposes. jonathan, it's great to see. thank you very much. on the, run a potentially armed and dangerous. officials are warning pennsylvanians who might be planning on hiking or camping in the woods to watch out for an escaped inmate. what could possibly go wrong?

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planning a trip to the

pennsylvanian woods this weekend? well, police would like you to keep an eye out for any trace of an escaped inmate who could be in the wild. i don't want to make light of it, but what could possibly go wrong? >> people are out hiking or biking, or whatever in the woods, and through the area in the coming days, particularly with the weekend there will be an influx level. we are asking them just to be alert to anything like that and if they see something, give us a call. >> so they are still searching for the escaped inmate and they believto be armed and extremy dangerous. take a look at michael charles brought him, please say that he escaped through a hole in the prisons rooftop, driving down using bedsheets tied together. and new tonight, this stockpile you are looking at right there is one reason why authorities believe he is still on the pennsylvania area. i want to bring in cnn senior law enforcement analyst, chief ramsey. thank you so much for being with us.

the stockpiles that we just showed there are thought to be burhans. how significant is that? >> well, it is very significant. if he is going to believe that he is in that area, the question is how did he get that particular stockpile? i mean did somebody provided for him, does he have an accomplice, did he steal it? but they believe he is still in the area. i am sure that they brought up forensic for analysis on the items that they found a determine whether or not it belongs to him or not. latent prints, dna, things like that. and i would bet that they have found something pretty significant that really leads them to believe that he is still in that area. >> you heard the warning to people who might be wiping in the woods this weekend, and a call for help to people who might be there. what concerns me most about the fact he could be hiding out where other people might be? >> well, he is apparently pretty dangerous indivand if you are out there and camping or whatever, i mean he is trying to survive. i don't think that he would be

above taking a hostage, certainly stealing other items and continuing to survive. people need to really pay attention to their surroundings there. if it were me, i don't think i would be camping in that park at this weekends until they find this guy. but this is such a huge expanse. it is right at the allegheny national forest, which is about 1 million acres or so. so it is almost enforceable to totally shut it down and keep people from going in there completely. but, they are going to do what they can to try to alert people, make them aware that this individual is potentially out there and anything at all that seems suspicious, they should give police a call immediately. >> so one of the quirky things about this case is officials saying they are looking into a drone that was heard flying immediately adjacent to the jail just before the escape. so why might that be relevant? >> well, i think they are

looking at the possibility that he had an accomplice. this was a planned escape, and not just something that just randomly happened. i mean, it is not syo get out of a detention facility and this person was able to not only get out, but do it ir quickly. my understanding is that guard actually saw on video that he was attempting to escape, and by the time he was able to alert other guards he was already gone. so they are looking at that possibility, didi have help from the inside, someone from the outside? so that would play into that theory, and that is why they are trying to trace the source of that particular drone to see whether or not that leads them anywhere. >> how long do you think this manhunt might last? >> i don't know, the longer it goes, no more difficult it becomes. it is like every other criminal investigation that you have. you want to try to wrap it up as quickly as possible. hopefully they can contain him in this area, because as more time goes by, to steal a car, he could do a variety of things to get out of the area.

of course and that expands the search grid into other states, other jurisdictions, and it makes it more difficult. much can't wait for a new season of her favorite agency show, you might be out of luck because the actors adjoining the e writers on strike.

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>> tonight, i hope you liked reading or public favor section, because that is what you might be doing for entertainment. to date, the main actor union, sag-aftra, decided to go on strike, joining the writers guild. disappear sunday bay both walked together, since 1960, when side was led by ronald reagan. their issues includes wages, a

bigger slice of streaming revenue and safeguards against artificial intelligence taking their jobs, which is notable given the limits of arnold switch and eggers acting in determinator. >> [speaking in a non-english language] >> that aside, for writers and actors, this is a serious issue, existential they say, and not likely that they will see solved anytime soon, which means a complete overhaul of scripted and ultimate on tv screens. tv, movies, gone, nothing new. which is why you might need to find a good book, which it turns out, we're not doing so much anymore. in a recent gallup poll, american said that they were even averaged 12.6 books a year, or during the past year, the lowest number since they started counting. one study found that american spend just 15 minutes a day reading, not going to fill the hole, so what will? for that, we get some internet research on what people did for leisure before tv and movies. the library of congress has all kinds of information about leisure time, so one thing, swimming. great, except for the sharks

and sea otters attacking surf boards, what is happening in california. roller skating, a fad the library of congress says began in the 18 80s and is still precious today. and then the internet turned out this leisure time favored from the 17 40s and 50s, attending public dissections. watching corpses get taken apart. public dissections were a big deal done, so much so that they needed new space to do it. there was actually a boom in building, what a called anatomical theaters, seriously. -- , a set to have seats with a high balcony supported by eight or columns and a basement. usually, it could accommodate 180 people. so that is life without scripted television. for more, let's bring in our senior data reporter, harry enten. >> this is why it is so important, harry. how much time do americans been

watching tv? >> nelson had a study out from the last quarter of last year, 294 minutes on average per day, 294 minutes. that is not one hour, th i not two hours, that is not three hours, that is not for hours, is more than five hours. this includes streaming, obviously. basically anything that is connected to your television. this, my dear friend, could be a disaster because what are we going to do? we're going to do reading? >> like i said, 15 minutes a day is what most people do. that will not fill the void. >> it won't fill the void. i am honestly hoping that maybe a few more people will not only read but maybe watch a little news. >> that would be great. >> look, though, strikes have happened before. we've seen that with actors, writers, one time in the 1960s together. how will that change what's on fire? >> there are a few things. number one, go back to a strike in the late 80s, the writer strike, and what we saw the development of the show cops came on the air because of the

writer strike. it was a direct delineation from it. mission impossible made a reoccurrence. they re-imagined mission impossible on television because they're able to reuse the scripts in the 1960s. moonlighting, which was a great show with bruce willis, that show basically went adios amigos in part because they could not get the script going on on time, one of the shows where that roll up to the last minute. is one of those things were wounded minding went on the especially because of the strike. >> it has a big impact on by the way, it's not clear that there will be a solution anytime soon. in the past, what types of changes have people made to their behavior. >> so, one of the things that i think is so important to realize about the strike versus once in the past is that time has changed, john. for example, the last under was a writer strike, i was in college. but it's also about what our viewing habits and what we have changed their. streaming was not really a thing. youtube was not a thing really back in 2008, right?

and 2007, in fact, the percentage of americans who watch stuff onoutube get this, back in 2007 200 it was only about 11% of americans. no, we're up to the upper 70s on that measure. perhaps, people will go and use youtube more. another thing you were mentioning, john was reading, right? fewer americans are reading than ever before. right now, the percentage of americans who read at least a little bit per day iless than 20%. now, that is not particularly high. it was higher back in the early 2000s, when it was a little bit closer to 30% of americans, so the fact is we're talking about reading, i am not sure that americans will data, but it may go watch someone clips on youtube or have some moonlighting clips. i do love that theme song. >> again, we're talking about a lot of people and 11 hood, a lot of jobs on the line. hopefully, they'll reach a solution soon. harry, thank you very much for all of this. so as always, i asked for threats, and this time, i asked

for you to give me advice on how to sign off tonight. so, this comes from command three our and three are, a heck of a surname, right? i did use an earlier version of the show, i love it so much, i'll say it again right now. so here it is. that is all for us, i am john berman, and tomorrow is not tonight. our coverage continues.

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>> tonight on three 60, breaking news in both special counsel probes. we now know who in the presidents inner circle has been talking to special counsel. and jack smith response to trump team's efforts to delay the documents trial. also tonight, how conservative republicans managed to