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in the fast-food industry. and build a california for all of us. thank you governor and our california lawmakers for fighting for what matters. check it out at shine.com manu raju on capitol hill in this is cnn this is gps, the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world i'm fareed zakaria coming to you from new york today on the program america's college campuses in turmoil over the war in gaza is it free speech or threats of violence we have two strong voices with very different view then in israel, plans continue for the invasion of rafah at the white house continues to urge against michael oren,

israel's former ambassador to america, helps examine how this will play out secretary blinken traveled to china this week and gave a warning over beijing supportive moscow are us, china relations two tenths or not dense enough i'll doctor donald trump's former ta tough china aid map products but first, here's my take it's difficult to know what to make of the turmoil on college campuses these days. >> the protests polarization intimidation, and general bitterness in a revealing article in the wall street journal douglas belkin sets these events against a broader backdrop. the disappearance of a sense of community. he points to research demonstrating that quote, college students today are lonelier, less resilient, and more disengaged than their

predecessors. the university communities, they populate are socially fragmented, diminished, and less vibrant one wonders whether this loss of community has led to more distrust, sharper disagreements, and more anger people are encountering one another at these protests, often for the first time, often as strangers the college campus, i went two decades ago was full of political disagreements. it was the time of ronald reagan, the cold war, the nuclear freeze movement, and divestment from south africa. tents and shantytowns were built on the plaza outside the president's office but we also had long and soul debates about the issues and every group i was in at class or an extra curricular organizations, people disagreed about the issues, but they did so seriously, listening to others and engaging in what was mostly civil discourse though it's easy to romanticize the past when reagan's defense

secretary caspar weinberger came to speak, student protesters repeatedly tried to disrupt his speech. but the vast majority in the room, most of them almost certainly disagreed with weinberger, booed the protesters what i would the elad was a place with overflowing classrooms and meeting halls, keg parties, debates, plays, and sport events always well attended, which are made for rich community. many of my best friends today are people i met in those packed rooms for decades ago i've returned to my campus several times since then and for many years it felt very much the same place i had been to all those years ago. but over the last decade, campus life has seemed center. and then came covid, which like a neutron bomb, decimated community life on campus while leaving all the beautiful buildings intact in his essay, belkin quotes or residential assistant at another college whose job it was to help

socialize the freshmen many wouldn't leave their rooms even for dome meetings. asieh over text if they could video chat instead, the bewildered rass, i was literally across the hall a college official at another place suggested this may be the new normal there may be no real return to the past while the pandemic might have been the great accelerator, the decline of social capital, the bonds that sustained communities has been a theme of scholarly work for decades now, the seminal work on the topic was a 97-95 essay by harvard's robert putnam, later expanded into a book bowling alone the title draws on data that showed that more americans were bowling. >> but fewer and fewer were bowling in leagues putnam follows the decline of social groups and tries to pinpoint causes the single most consistent predictor. >> he presciently observed was

television. technology and the internet have allowed people to make leisure a private rather than communal activity. it goes beyond college campuses in my book, age of revolutions, i point out that what has really caused alienation in america, even when incomes have stayed steady or even risen, has been the collapse of community and small town america the mom and pop store gone unable to compete with amazon. >> the corner arcade displaced by online gaming the local movie theater run out of town by netflix. >> churches were so many americans gathered every sunday are increasingly empty the big metro centers to which everyone has flocked to have communities but their communities largely shaped by our jobs. the journalist nicholas lemon once noted that he had lived in five american cities washington, new orleans, austin, cambridge, and pelham according to him the two

quote, most deficient in the putnam virtues and code, essentially lacking and social capital. work, cambridge and washington, as he put it, the reason is that these places are the big time work absorbs all the energy community is defined functionally not spatially. it is a professional peer group rather than a neighborhood and it's natural to wonder whether this sense of community is tenuous. that is, if you lose your job your membership in the community is revoked along with it college campuses today are still exciting places. they are full of smart well-meaning students extraordinary professors, and all kinds of educational and extra curricular opportunities. but they have weakened as actual communities where people mingle, interact, and get to know and trust each other and in this sense, campuses today are not that different from the

broader american society of which they are a reflection go to cnn.com slash opinions to read my column this week and cnn.com slash fareed for link to buy my new book and let's get started in 1968 at the height of the vietnam war, columbia university was wracked by campus protests in the end, officials there called in the police to arrest the demonstrators. >> history seems to be repeating itself as the campus has again become the epicenter of protests classes have gone hybrid, and columbia's president minouche shafik called in the nypd to clear the encampment, the restaurant more than 100 students one day earlier, schiff, he gave testimony before congress in that hearing, republican

lawmakers grilled her on what they described as anti-semitism among the protesters the progress and the responses raised big questions, joining me now to discuss all this, are bruce robins and bret stephens, bruises a professor at columbia's department of english and comparative literature, but is a columnist the new york times bruce, let me start with, you. >> ask you, what do you think has, has gone wrong at columbia over the last few weeks well, most of the faculty and i think the student body think that what's gone wrong is calling the police that the protest was calm well-organized, not violent. >> there is little, if any intimidation of anyone and there are people who don't agree with the protesters who absolutely don't agree with bringing in the police. i think that's the single biggest thing the other thing that faculty object to most

strongly. again, whatever their positions on the middle east is that in president sharp peaks testimony before congress, she didn't stop and up for the principles of the university, which is academic freedom and shared governance due process transparency, read what is in your view, what went wrong at columbia over the last few weeks? i don't know if it's over the last few weeks. it's maybe over the last few years, you have hundreds of students who are protesting. objective we speaking four for a terrorist organization, they're not holding up signs, calling for peace for the release of hostages. the end of hostilities, they're basically holding up the banners and mouthing the slogans of hamas. some of them, which have a clearly violent pedigree when they talk about the intifada. >> but let me ask you about that because you've classical liberal, you've written eloquently about how free speech involves speech that offense people. is it not okay for people to suddenly not

something i think any honore the stable agrees with, but if somebody were to say i agree with the goals of hamas, that is free speech or of course it is to be protected i support free speech. okay. there's, there's no question that should be the standard, including saying things that any of us might find objectionable or vile. i think part of the problem isn't so much the question of free speech. it's a question of double standards. and what i mean by that is if let's imagine that there were protests by a very aggressive a white students marching for white supremacy in a christian university somewhere in the middle of, of america, making a large percentage of black students on that campus feel profoundly unsafe and worried for their security. i don't think we would be looking at those white students and saying they also have free, free speech rights. so if the university's one will adopt a free-speech standard, it needs to be consistent and i think that's part of the objection here. at harvard. harvard

saying they should adopt a consistent free speech. i think they absolutely should, they should lean in the direction of free speech provided there for common sense rules about time, place, and manner of protests, disruption, and conduct that is effectively intimidating. so it crosses the line from speech to conduct. i don't think for instance, there should be a hecklers veto what do you think of all that? well they won't surprise you to know that i imagined that i think rather differently about this. first of all, there's an adder, matter of fact, which i have to correct people in the encampment, what we call the encampment. that's the protesters at columbia. they have not shouted out slogans, chanted slogans in support of hamas or the wanton destruction of civilian lives on october 7. that is simply not the fact it's a little upsetting, i think to everybody at columbia that the mainstream media, as well as the politicians, have

confused things that are chanted outside columbia's gates with things that the columbia protesters are saying because i've spent time in the encampment, i haven't heard anything even remotely like that. there are things i'm sure that ball three of us would have some trouble with that are being chanted outside the gates. columbia is not letting those people in when we come back, we'll dig deeper into the question of free speech versus hate speech. >> which forces intimidation on campus today fareed zakaria gps brought to you by fisher investments clearly different money management and for sure investments, we may look like other money managers, but were different you can't be that different. we are we have a team of specialists, not only in investing, but also in financial and estate planning. and more, your clients rely on you for all that? >> yes. and as a do sherry, we

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now of a conversation about the crisis on american college campuses with bruce robins, a professor at columbia and bret stephens columnist for the new york times what is the difference between free speech and speech that intimidates? >> making somebody uncomfortable? again, like you i feel awkward mean, speech, you disagree with this meant to make you uncomfortable, but it can clearly cross the line into physical intimidation, harassment making people feel they can go to their classrooms or dorm. so how do you, how do you draw that line? >> it's difficult to do it don't think there's any easy, easy line to draw, but there was a photograph and again, i don't know exactly who the protester is. maybe it's an outsider, maybe it's a columbia student appears to be in the quad columbia saying are carson's next target's al-qassam as the military wing of hamas. and it's pointing at a bunch of students were merely holding it's really and

american flags. that's a call to kill them. okay. now, maybe in the wider sense of the term that may even be permissive constitutionally permissible speech. but i would say that's the kind of speech that a university should look very carefully at at allowing rather, i think it should be disk the loud when it goes into a sense of true threat, right? then then you're talking about impermissible speech. so two things. first, about that photograph, do you agree that that went too far? >> i haven't seen or heard anything like that around the encampment so 0.1. >> so the the other point bread is making, which i think is fair, which is that universities have seen to lean in against so-called hate speech even if it didn't physically threaten somebody when it was about blacks or panics, the native americans but now when it's a reduce, they suddenly say no, it's all free speech i, i think we probably have more unpleasant

agreement here on this. >> i'm not in favor of canceling people for the kinds of things that they say. i think that people have been wrongly disciplined in one way or another. nearly four statements. they've made so about that, my own position is something like this universities don't have to kick can make up their own codes of what is acceptable on campus genocidal speech should not be acceptable. it might be acceptable in the united states constitutionally, i don't think there's any place for it on a university campus i also think there hasn't been any on the columbia campus and the things that are brought forward as evidence for genocidal speech, like from the river to the sea, or intifada de are not genocidal from the river to the sea is genocidal speech. and if we were talking about another minority group that told you, when you say this phrase it has

this set of implications. you would take them seriously and i'm just amazed by the dismissively with which so many people view this phrase, which is essentially a coffee elimination of an entire state as it has been constituted, as it has been a member of the united nations for 75 years. so cavalierly to call for the destruction of a state particularly in light of the way hamas acted on october 7, is genocidal speech and should be recognized that way. >> when i say something to that, i'm sorry, i don't want to interrupt you so as i understand from the river to the sea, it means equal rights for all the people living between the river in the sea now, that's an american value. we believe in democracy. we believe in equal rights for everybody since you were talking about double standards. for me, the double standard is israel is going to be a jewish state it can't be a jewish state and a democratic state, a state means equal rights for everybody and the people who

heard chanting from the river to the sea are saying, for everybody between the river in the sea, equal rights, which is you could say, the one state solution. i realized that not everybody likes the one states collision. i think it's an american value. we believe one man, one vote in your london review of books, asieh, you talked about how one of the things going on at college campuses, uh, you believe is that people are coming to realize that there are, there are large reservoirs of strong opposition to what israel has been doing for the last few decades. explain that is being misread it and your view as anti-semites, that is exactly what i think. >> i think that this is a conjuncture or moment, pardon, with their academic professorial doc it's black lives matter. the covid, pandemic and the fact that the young people these days have access and no offense to cnn to

uncensored know gatekeeping, visuals of the disruption in gaza via social media. so they have access to information in a way that they have never had access before. you put all those things together. and i think what israel is doing in gaza is the symbol of evil for this generation. and the poll numbers suggest that there is a wave of feeling, a crystallization just to be clear, as a jewish-american, i'm say they're not anti-semitic no, no, not at all the simplest thing that we have tried. we jewish faculty there many, many jewish students who are involved in this um, and we of course feel as jews that were not being recognized because my president is telling me and jewish voice for peace and organization that i admire very much that were being anti-semitic. i'm sorry. this is a way of being jewish on a secular jew i believe in universal principles, no double

standards, no jewish state without equal rights for everybody. so i'm really anti double standards i'm for a two-state solution. which one state solution would be a devastation for the jewish people on a scale that hasn't been seen since the last devastation a century ago and right now, this is an interesting discussion because we're talking about academia, but this has effects in the real-world. if the world gets behind the idea that israel's this uniquely malevolent state. say nothing about syria, sudan, china, other abuses, but israel's uniquely the state that must disappear and becomes the moral cause of this generation of students. we will be wrapping locating the tragedies that occurred on german universities in the 1920s and 1930s where the takeover by the left, that to a takeover by the right. and i'm one of the things that's so disturbing about these protests is there's no allowance for the idea that israelis have suffered. there's no allowance

for the idea that this, that this clash in between the israeli some palestine's is at a minimum morally complicated password. >> oh gosh, what a responsibility i don't think that people think that israel is unique example of evil in the world. i think what special about it is it, it couldn't do what it's doing without the support of the united states so students in the united states, thank we have a responsibility. it's not just somebody else. i mean, we're the united states is not supporting north korea, is not supporting syria. there are a lot of bad places that are doing bad things that equal or worse, who knows, but they're not being supported by us. so we have a responsibility as americans to do something about it. what's being done is being done in my name as an american and being done in my name as a jew. and those things are unbearable to me. >> and i feel the opposite. >> i would feel love to see the university protests that ever occurred on behalf of the kurds in their persecution by our allies, the turks or for that

matter, any protest about all of the massive human rights abuses. >> there's one state that's in the crosshairs. it's not an accident, it's the jewish one. >> we have to leave it at that. i hope we can actually have you guys back because this is a fascinating conversation about an issue that isn't going to go away next on gps is benjamin netanyahu's government listening to joe biden as israel prepares an invasion of rafah, i will talk to the former is rarely ambassador to washington. >> michael every piece of evidence tells a story how it really happened with jesse l. >> martin tonight at nine on cnn our pharmacy has been in business for nearly 100 years a wife and i have when it for the last 30 american technology is making this more efficient and customer-friendly. >> we use online tools to fill

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without going into rafah, the southern gaza city. >> but the biden administration has expressed deep concerns about the humanitarian impact of such an assault will israel go ahead with its plans and what would it mean for us relations? joining me from tel aviv is michael oren, who served as ambassador to the us under prime minister netanyahu from 2009 to 2013 michael welcome. do you think that israel will go ahead with the rafah play operations as it had planned. >> good to be with you for aid? yes, i do. i think israel is going to go ahead with the raffa operation. it's overwhelming support, both bodies republic within the government but i think it's really going to have to be very, very cautious to reduce as much as possible the civilian casualties on the palestinian sayyed and try to meet the biden administration to the greatest degree possible halfway i was told that the

plans that the israeli government presented to the biden administration the biden administration, todd, we're almost laughable. >> they were going to put people million millions of people's intense that it just didn't seem like they had a real plan to alleviate the humanitarian crisis that would result well, i know that israel has gotten, israeli representatives have talked several times with the vital ministration with these plans at these really planners are convinced that these plans are workable and will greatly reduce palestinian civilian casualties. >> the great challenges you're dealing with it with an enemy hamas, which is using these palestinians as human shields. as actually using the landscape of gaza's as a shield because underneath the rafah area are dozens and dozens of miles of tunnels and underneath those tunnels within those tunnels are also israeli hostages, as many as 130, which we hope remain alive in the hands of hamas. so the challenges here are immense and israel is going

to have two on one hand, achieve its strategic goal of eliminating hamas, hamas and ensuring that hamas cannot return rearm, reorganized, and use gaza once again as a staging ground for barbara's attacks against israel. on the other hand, let me ask for service relationship with the biden administration let me ask you about that. that's strategic goal because what we're seeing in northern gaza now is after israel did a massive operation in which has claimed to have eliminated hamas is the return of hamas insurgency. the israeli troops battling again, this is a familiar certainly to americans. it's exactly clear what happened in iraq and afghanistan. so this is one of the reasons it seems to me the biden administration was pressing that getting these eliminating these last few battalions in gaza enormous cost it's not worth it because there will always be insurgents

out there well, i would agree to you acute could eliminate hamas as a military threat. you can't get rid of the idea of hamas anywhere, anywhere. you can get rid of the idea of isis or al-qaeda or even the muslim brotherhood. yes, it's going to be a long-term insert a counterinsurgency fight such, as the american wage in iraq. and eventually one through its surge in iraq and so yes, israel will have to continue to fight various cells of hamas that will spring up and not just in gaza, but in the west bank as well it's an ongoing fight, but eliminating these battalions will remove hamas's ability to reorganize and restage these types of attacks. absolutely crucial if the biden administration says as a consequence of israel doing this, suddenly they've been saying in the past, it was really policy on raffa doesn't change. then american policy toward israel will have to change presumably that means some kind of conditionality on the military aid. the united states is giving.

>> if that happens would that have the effect of changing israel, israeli policy? i don't think so. i think israel is committed to concluding the battle against hamas. again, it has overwhelming support in the american, in the israeli public, even at the expense of strange relationship with the biden administration. now, let's be clear. i don't represent the israeli government anymore. i'm not ambassador anymore. and i have my own opinions. i think that that israel can meet the president a halfway on other issues. for example, the biden ministration wants to talk about day after scenario. for gaza, mighta ministration wants to talk about the possibility of involving the palestinian authority, which we'll be revamped a revitalized hi, with a role in governance postwar gaza, that might've missed hathaway to a palestinian state. i think it's worthwhile for israel to engage in all of these discussions about this the day after post-world planning it seemed to me you were just saying that israel

will have to be essentially in a permanent occupation of gaza because there will be an insurgency and it will have to fight it. how could how is that compatible with handing over power? the be is not going to take over and enforce israel's security concerns. by shooting palestinians, is it i don't think it necessarily involves a long-term occupation, but does it goes does involve a long-term israeli evolvement, insecurity. >> israel's involved in security control, even in areas under the palestinian authority in the west bank. so there are models for this. >> michael are always good to have you on great to be with you too. >> thank you for you. >> next on gps is the biden administration's basic strategy to china misguided. that is what former top trump aid and china x. but matthew pottinger says, next beyond

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and china. joining me is matthew pottinger, who served as donald trump's point man on china he is the author of an upcoming book called the boiling mode urgent steps to defend taiwan, which comes out in july matt, welcome. you also have this extraordinary essay in foreign affairs that i wanted to start with because in a jew basically say that you think the biden administration has taken some very good and tough steps on china, but it's basic goal is wrong. you say the biden administration is trying to manage competition with china whereas the goal of the united states government should be regime change. it should be just as it wasn't the soviet union. a policy of containment designed to essentially overthrow the chinese communist party do you think that that is a workable plan for the, for the united states yeah. >> i look i don't explicitly

call for regime change in the piece, but what i do say is that we need to recognize that in effective us strategy might naturally lead, lead to some form of regime collapse driven by the chinese people, including members of the chinese communist party, who are already extremely concerned about the direction that china's supreme leader is steering their country. he's taken such a confrontational approach towards the united states he's fueling wars in europe. the biggest war in europe since world war ii. so what we're calling for is a policy that actually aims for victory on the same terms that george kennan described in at the beginning of the cold war, where basically we would contain the soviets and naturally the soviet system would eventually begin to collapse under its own rotten weight, not because we're pursuing an irac style regime change policy. but in fact

that's exactly george kennan was proven right four decades later at the end of the reagan administration, when the soviet union just, just kinda went out with a whimper. are you advocating a complete decoupling and disengagement because to get to that that policy that you're describing with the soviet union, where you had these two her sealed spheres that the us capitalist sphere and the soviet communist sphere, you would talking about going in, moving into a completely different world than the one we're in. >> no global economy, none, nothing like that yeah it's not a full decoupling, but what really is is about restricting china's clearly stated ambitions to dominate high technology in the 21st century. >> and seating thing has been very clear he has said that he wants all of the western industrialized nations to be dependent on china. and for china to be completely independent of imports from those countries, except for

things like soybeans and corn. so i don't relish the idea of waging cold war. what i'm saying is we need to recognize that jinping has already waging a cold war against us, seeking ping has said in more than one speech that the primary descriptor of the world today is chaos. he says di, chaos and he goes on to say that this is actually beneficial for the chinese communist party's aims in the world he's even gone farther last year when he met with vladimir putin he identified him and putin as the architects of chaos. >> he said, he said volodymyr, you and the changes that are occurring right now, we haven't seen since really, since world war ii. >> and he said you and i are the ones driving this change in the world so i got to ask you this map. do you think this is a strategy that donald trump would embrace where he'd win the white house. and i ask that letting viewers a node, then important caveat, which is you

did serve as this stop china aid but on january 6, because of what happened that day, you resigned from the white house. you are the senior most white house official to resign. >> but all that said, you know, the man, you advise them, do you think this is the kind of strategy we would be looking at in a second trump term. the advantage of president trump's approach was that he was willing to be confrontational. he was willing to actually impose significant costs on beijing for types of things that they were doing to undermine our interests. he was he put massive tariffs on on beijing. now where i actually think president biden has contributed to the overall direction of us strategy. is that he recognizes that we are in a competition explicitly between democracies and friends of democracies. on the one hand, countries that at least respect sovereignty, whether they're democracies are not on one side, on our side. and then countries that fundamentally have contempt for the national sovereignty of their neighbors

and our total hello terrion governments, let's face it, they're not just beijing is not just authoritarian under seeding, ping is a totalitarian dictatorship. so i think that if president trump were to adopt, if he gets re-elected some, some of that cold war framework, i actually think it would accelerate as successful us policy in a second term mountbatten job fascinating foreign affairs essay. >> thank you so much for joining us thanks for having me for eid every weekday morning, cnn's 05 things has what you need to get going with your day. >> it's the five essential stories of the morning in five minutes or less. >> cnn's five things with kate bolduan streaming weekdays exclusively on max, freeze, dryness, breakage, new dove, ten and ones serum hair mask with peptide complex fortifies hair bonds at a molecular learn

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>> skechers massage that sandals. they give you what massage with every step the secret is skechers patented a wave technology that gently massage is your foot with every step skechers this massage that sandals much of the conversation around the southern us border focuses on the people and the drugs crossing north into the united states but my next guest takes a new approach by studying the root of american guns that cross south into mexico. >> often with devastating effects yerba, you so neat is an anthropology professor at brown university. she also spent years working on the us-mexican border as a paramedic her new book is called exit wounds. how america's guns fuel violence across the border welcome, pleasure to have you on the name. it it's a wonderful title. >> exit wounds. explain what you mean so as emergency

responders paramedics and emts, we are looking for exit wounds in order to understand what did a bullet to do to the body, how can we stop? >> the bleeding as soon as we can? it's not always easy to find exit ones and sometimes we can't find them so in a similar way, if we went to understand what do guns due to a society, we're looking for injuries that are not only physical, but also social, political, economic, because gun violence, not only affects individuals, but extends to families, communities, entire neighborhoods. so the title is showing that urgency for us to figure out what role do us gun laws, us gun industry. he was guns play in the lives of people on the other side of the border. and how they are paying, then comes back to us. >> so explain, if you will, what the role american guns plays in this sort of cycle of

violence? >> without the guns, we wouldn't be getting so many drugs and we wouldn't be seeing so many migrants and asylum seekers fleeing the violence because violence in mexico is primarily caused by guns that come from the united states, mexico has very strict gun laws only two gun, shops in the entire country, but the entire border on the other side of the border in arizona and texas, you have thousands of going dealerships and it is very easy to buy, very powerful guns that organized crime groups in mexico want what do you think that most americans don't understand about this, whole situation? >> now that you've studied, it gives you talk about how this militarization actually enriches the cartels that struck me is a fascinating point that's a very important issue. >> we think that if we build a bigger wall or longer wall, or send the troops to the water we will prevent people from coming, and we will keep

violence on the other side of the border. but that violence is created by our own tools, by the guns we produce and making this country. so the more we militarize the border, the more difficult it is for both migrants to reach safety, but also it increases the profits of organized crime groups who compete for these diminishing routes to take a bigger you require more and more professional militarized cartels to break through exactly and more powerful weapons so it feels like they're all kinds of reasons to have stronger gun laws in the united states. but do you think it's fair to say that if you had stronger background checks and all that kind of stuff, it would also make a big difference in terms of the violence and the entire way in which the border has become so militarized. so pervaded by gangs and cartels. >> stronger gun laws would help anything that increases gun safety in the would help

however, i do not think that we can only use laws to solve this problem because as long as there was demand for guns the united states, there will be supplied. this is how illicit economies work that said, if we made it more difficult for organized crime groups together, hand of truckloads of ammunition in texas or arizona and ammunition sales or even less regulated or not regulated entirely compared to guns, then there will be fewer police officers killed in mexico. there would be less than security in mexico. so there is a direct connection such a pleasure. >> hear from you, this is a site of this that i think none of us have paid enough attention to. >> thank you very much thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week the sinking

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