tonight actually there's a really frighteningly easy way to put that $1 trillion in perspective. so to give you just a sense of how much money we're burning through that we do not have, remember the $1.2 trillion in automatic cuts th s thas that c the end of the year? the so-called sequester cuts that republicans and democrats alike say will kill us and eviscerate our defense among other things? well that $1.2 trillion in pain is spread out over ten years. so yes, we are burning through that amount of money at this moment every single year. it is money that we do not have. it is deficit money. it is borrowed. to make the point, again and again and again. and it has been going on for years. under presidents from both parties. over the time that you see here, there's been plenty of lip service about the deficit problem with everybody blaming somebody else. >> no one needs to lecture me or else on deficits, because you

invented them. republicans invented deficits. >> another area where i hope we can find some agreement is on the issue of getting our deficits and debt under control. >> that's the danger to this country. is the $14 trillion deficit and the $1.6 trillion we add to it every damn year. >> a lot of talk. but no action. at least not on our spending problem. congress is working hard, voting down the health care law for the 33rd time and voting to use the capitol visitors center for an event to celebrate the one-time king of the hawaiian islands. i'm all for the importance of hawaiian history and maybe even hawaiian independence but all the while the clock is ticking on the fiscal cliff. "outfront" tonight, economist and professor at the university

of maryland school of business. and the economics editor at yahoo! finance. what is it going to take? when you look at the $1 trillion that we're burning through now. you're already at $4 trillion there. the $1.2 trillion in devastating cuts is a ten-year number. >> well, our deficits gone from about $161 billion before the recession to about $1.2 trillion a year. it's an enormous increase. only half of that can be just fewed by inflation. more folks on social security. medicaid. medicare becoming more expensive. the rest is entitlements. we simply are going to have to spend less money. but also we're going to have to accept more taxes because we're spending 50% more than we're taking in and we simply can't cut anywhere near that much. >> it is a bipartisan problem. president bush with the prescription drug benefit. that was an incredibly expensive

entitlement. it was a lot of money spent and borrowed. president obama, certain things. he says he supports the simmen/bowles deficit program, right? romney wants to cut taxes by 20%. neither one of them seem to really be embracing some of the painful things. >> the third big enabler is the bond market. investors around the world are getting away with this. we sold in the u.s. 10-year bonds. 1.46%. so even though we're running up these huge debts -- >> that makes a mortgage look expensive. >> -- pristine balance sheet. on the one hand, people kind of fear that interest rates will get out of control, then we'll be in big trouble. on the other hand, the market is not enforcing a sense of urgency on our political system. >> peter, people talk about this. when money is cheap, you want to borrow it. so that way you know you're locking in this low interest rate. that makes a lot of sense for the country.

it does enable this spending and this addiction, as dan indicates. wh one day, those interests can go higher. remember the late 1970s. >> well, they certainly can go to 6% or 7% without much problem. europe will eventually get over its problems. that's why all its money is coming here. the chinese are not going to be able to lend money to us the way we have been indefinitely. when we have to pay higher interest rate on a debt that's more than $15 trillion, then we'll have to raise taxes a lot or we're going to have to really cut spending much more, you know, much more draconian fashion. right now we're being lulled into a sense of complacency we simply should not have. >> dick cheney and paul krugman. the odd couple. krugman is for borrow, borrow

borrow. dick cheney said deficits don't matter, don't worry about it. >> this is not the only inversion we see. republicans are saying no, we can't cut government spending, ie, defense, because that will mean millions of job lost, imply that if you cut government spending, you lose jobs. the democrats are the ones saying we can't let taxes go up on the middle class at a time like this. which leads me to believe that movie you showed of the train, i think you should have put up the "titanic." it hits the iceberg and has that kind of crash. going into this election season, there's going to be no grand bargain now. hard to see one happen during a lame duck session. i think we will begin to see some of those sequestered cuts kick in. which will ironically make the budget deficit picture look a little better. >> that's true. they may hurt. maybe, peter, that would make it worth it, we take those sequester cuts. you let the bush tax cuts

expire. it's painful, yes. but you do get more money. is it the right thing to do? >> i don't know that it's the right thing to do. we need to fix what's broken in the economy so it grows more rapidly. so we can get along without these large deficits. krugman's right, that we need large deficits to keep the economy going at a time like this. but the trouble is, we're becoming addicted to low interest rates and we're not spending money prudently. i don't know that government spending had an increase so much over the last five years on a permanent and structural basis to justify these dech sits. >> maybe it's time to look at one of those. certain terrible times, you would need to overspend. saying, look, you can only spend this percent of your revenue. this is what you bring in this is what you're allowed to spend. >> we all know what the contours of a grand bargain are, right? some loopholes will go away. some tax rates will go away. it's just a question of -- i think it's a question of when that happens. >> all right. well, thanks very much for both

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senate majority leader harry reid says mitt romney is so secretive about his finances that he wouldn't make it through a senate confirmation hearing. >> he could not only be confirmed as a cabinet secretary, he couldn't be confirmed as a dog catcher. >> okay, he got a little nasty there. you got the point. democrats are out in full force today. flagging a "boston globe" article that questioned when mitt romney left bain capital. from our look at it, the implication's basically that mitt romney was the sole stock holder in a specific bain fund after he left as ce o, actually

that does seem to be fair. but it does seem to add to the drumbeat of questions about transparency in mitt romney's financial history. our guests are all with us. let me start with you. basically, and it is complicated, you know, private equity firms, they'll have bain capital fund 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. this was 6. he left quickly. he basically put his ownership of the firm in this thing and he had no control. does this fly with you? their explainers are very complicated. >> i think the basic story is he was not in day to day charge of what bain capital was doing after he abruptly left to take over the salt lake city olympics in february 1999. the problem is it's a little tricky because there wasn't another person listed on those filing documents as ceo because, again, he left abruptly. so it takes a while to make this transition happen. but then fortune on cnnmoney recently had a story that said

we've seen internal documents that said he was not one of the managing partners. so i think the story is correct. the problem is this is really tough to explain. if someone wants to exploit that fact, they can. >> john avlon, let's put up the quote. in the 2001 bain capital sec filing. this is what i think has created some confusion. mr. w. mitt romney is the sole shareholder. everybody, that's what's really important. that is not bain capital. this is bain investor 6. >> sounds like a super hero team. >> right, or it sounds like something that is deeply confusioning inin ining or des obfuscate. >> this sec filing seems to contradict the previous statements. that mitt romney didn't have anything to do with bain after 1999. there's specific reasons for that cutoff date. that's when he took over the olympic bid. so he stopped, clearly, day-to-day functioning and

oversight at bain at that point. between 1999 and 2001 a lot of the things that have been alleged in the ads and things occurred at bain. for example, the outsourcing claim. a company which did call centers. between 1999 and 2001 that call center company merged, really started moving overseas, and then was divested by bain. the kansas city steel company that was the subject of that obama attack ad. it's between 1999 and 2001 where things changed. initially, the bain infusion helped the company thrive. starting 1999, they start losing around $50 billion and ultimately the company goes bankrupt. that's why these dates matter so much. >> the thing is if you want to look at it that way, so he had no control, but he was getting money. at this point, mitt romney is still receiving money from investments that were made at bain that was part of his retirement deal with the company. he's still getting money. >> yeah, erin, you know what this sounds like to most people

in the country? outsourcing. swiss bank account. sweetheart deal. for most people in the country, they have no idea what all these things add up to. but is raising questions about mitt romney's business career. he started out being a positive. somewhere in america, there are a bunch of democrats sitting in a room doing the dark arts of campaigns and they're sitting off little informational time bombs on mitt romney every week. at some point, his campaign has got to get a hold of itself and find a way to create a narrative about mitt romney's business career that most people in america will accept or else he will not be elected president of the united states. people will not trust this man to lead this country. >> here's the stunning thing about this. just from a political level. they've had -- mitt romney's political career's gone on for 18 years it first runs for the senate in 1984. 18 years to get this story straight. to have a strong clear answer that voters can understand about what is objectively a hugely impressive private sector record. this guy was a leader in business and very successful. that's something americans

generally root for. the flat footedness about clearly explaining this, that's where the question comes in. >> john and jamal are making a very fair point. this guy has known about his ambition to be in public office and president for a very long time. for at least the past eight years. why are they getting hit, seemingly punched in the face every week, by this stuff? >> we have an eerie convergence here, which is a consensus among the three of us. mitt romney has a story to tell about dynamism. income private equity means essentially what you're doing is you're a guy who is taking on corporate insiders. you're taking failing companies, infusing them with cash, so they can then take on fat and lazy incumbents. and that's ultimately a good thing for consumers. it tends to lower prices. it drives productivity gains. here's the thing. that's a very big and complicated idea to explain. from the romney campaign's perspective, they think they don't have the room, the media echo chamber in order to get that story across.

rather, they have to fight 30-second sound bite to 30-second sound bite. that's why they feel they can't tell that story about why dynamism is good. >> he's not sitting down and doing in depth interviews on these interviews. >> he's afraid -- >> right, but the only way to represent is to sit down and do one and take the tough questions and then come out -- >> look, requires a level of trust on the part of your intermarketer. i think a lot of republicans believe they're not going to get a fair shark. that that's why they engage in a fairly nickel and dime tactic. you could actually say, wait a second, outsourcing, trade, these are things that make america stronger. but that's really tough to say if you feel as though you're not going to get a fair shake. >> it's also tough to say if your sec filing says look this is perfectly explainable if you're running a private equity fund. that's tough to understand. >> final word quickly, jamal. >> the facts have an uncanny way of coming out. ask george bush about his drunk diving record during the 2000

campaign. they've got to find a way to just let it all out, get it out on their terms, telling their story and get moving. >> -- outsourcing by the way, didn't work then, we'll see if it works now. >> people will listen. he's got to give people credit for being smart and being able to understand this stuff. otherwise, actually insult people. thanks to all of you. the big news today, the freeh report and its damning criticism of joe paterno. his son jay is "outfront" tonight to answer to that. next, something about the rolling stones you probably won't believe. is backed by an equally powerful and secure cloud. that cloud is in the network, so it can deliver all the power of the network itself. bringing people together to develop the best ideas -- and providing the apps and computing power to make new ideas real. it's the cloud from at&t. with new ways to work together, business works better. ♪

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our third story "outfront" tonight. sea drones. the u.s. military has been bulking up in the persian gulf in case of a conflict with iran or a war. today, we find out that the united states has deployed submersible sea drones to clear iranian mines. we're going to explain in a moment. add them to the the two aircraft carriers already in the region, mine sweeping ships and a ship that the u.s. could use as a forward staging base and you start to see some of the very significant build-up the u.s. military is putting into the persian gulf and the strait of hormuz in response to the iranians threatening to close the strait because they're upset about sanctions on their country. the united states in fact announceded more of those sanctions today. expanding them against iranian companies they say are involved in the country's nuclear program. cnn contributor fran townsend is a member of the cia external

advisory board. can you explain what those are? we all have a concept of what drones are in the air, but what are sea drones? >> this is a commercially available product that obviously is going to supplement. you talked about the mine sweeping ships. a sea drone which what you don't want to have happen is have a mine sweeper miss a mine and go over it and have it detonate. so these sea drones are used. they can go to deep depths. hundreds of feet. they go in front of the ship and around it. so they -- they're sort of the canary in the mine, if you will. they go under water, very deep, look for these mines. if they find it, they detonate it and they destroy themselves and it protects the ship. >> sort of hovering in the water with sensors. hence the word "drone." the u.s. military seems a little schizophrenic to me, to be honest. they brag about it, then they don't want to talk about it. >> as you list the assets, they're hard to hide, right,

aircraft carriers, mine sweepers, forward operating bases. >> right. >> so it's pretty clear. we shouldn't be surprised frankly. when you look at the negotiations between iran and the west fell apart. july 1st, the oil sanctions, which were long noticed, but they actually went into effect then. today they came out, they announced companies that are subject to sanctions because they believe they're front companies for the potential movement of oil around those sanctions. >> right. >> so as this progresses, given the critical nature of the straits of hormuz in the movement of oil throughout the world, not to be surprised that we would move military assets in there. >> final thing, "daily telegraph" front page tomorrow morning. british intelligence saying they had -- m 16 agents foiled iran's attempts to build a nuclear bomb in 2008 but they say they're two years away from getting one. you take that seriously? >> i do. works very closely with u.s. and western intelligence. take disruptive actions all the time. and so not surprising, and two years is consistent with what

we've heard from general petraeus at cia and leon panetta before him. that's the lower, the sooner end of that scale, but not different really from what we're hearing from western intelligence. >> a little longer than israel's thinking, which might be a good thing. fran townsend, thank you. and next, what is it about washington, d.c. mayors? the latest one caught up in a corruption scandal. should washington have seen it coming?

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welcome back to the second half of "outfront." we start with stories we care about. focusing our reporting on the front lines. first tonight, egyptian president mohamed morsi returned from his first international trip. egypt desperately needs money and saudi has a lot of it. egypt's economy is in terrible straights and it needs to have a good relationship with saudi, its largest trading partner. morsi, of course, is a muslim brotherhood candidate. it is a banned party in saudi arabia. back home, morsi has to start putting together a government. interesting, a man from the eurasia group says he thinks morsi will pick a weak prime

minister to keep decision making within the muslim brotherhood. they have changed a lot of the constitution so that morsi himself will not have very much power at all. passwords have been expose pd a group of hackers stolen the passwords. saying they wanted to do it as a wake-up call and not a threat. yahoo! confirmed this. the most frequently used passwords were, okay, everybody this is a wake-up call. if your password is "password," "welcome" or 123456, you probably should change it. wells pargo is paying $175 million to settle allegations it discriminated against black and hispanic borrowers. accused wells fargo of steering minority buyers into more costly loans and charging them higher fees. the center for responsible lending says the news is welcome. but they say, and i quote, the

impact of discriminatory pricing on african-american and latino communities has been severe and will take generations to remedy. tonight, senate dnls have written to attorney general eric holder calling on him and regulators to investigate the ongoing rate fixing finder on i libor, that crucial rate. he wants them to pursue criminal probes into banks that could have machi have manipulated that rate. it's been 343 days since this country lost its top credit rating. 30-year mortgage rates have hit another record low. every week i say this might be the last week i get to say that. 3.56%. rates have either matched or hit a new low for 11 of the past 12 weeks. obviously in order to have an economic recovery we need housing to recover, those low rates hope. we've had a little recove re over the past few months. we'll see if it will stick. now our fourth story

"outfront." worst mayor in america may happen to live in the nation's capital. vincent gray. this is an amazing story. he was running in 2010 against a young rising star in the democratic party this guy adrian fenty, who was loved by a lot of people. you may remember him. he was telling the unions to go jump off a cliff in washington, d.c. he said, i'm going to come in, i've got integrity and leadership. that's a quote. his administration has been plagued by scandal. a friend of grays pleaded guilty to helping funnel $650,000 in campaign funds through a contractor to support gray's election. that is on top of the three campaign aides who have pleaded guilty to felony charges. and others in the d.c. government are not looking as good either. many of the city's top government officials have now under investigation by the city or federal officials. now three council members are calling on gray to resign. john avlon, this is just an amazing story.

this is a guy who came in as a knight in shining armor for the teachers unions, to fight back and say, i'm going to help you out. and here he is, involved in multiple, seemingly, corruption scandals. >> this was the establishment striking back. the democratic machine. teachers unions. to push back against adrian fency's controversial reforms. the clubhouse in many big cities is often corrupt and the allegations of corruption are unbelievable. in epidemic proportions now. the question is, when you've got this many distractions, and we now know he knew about the $650,000 shadow campaign infusion back in january, how long can you continue to govern? >> and let's talk about this. i mean, what does this mean for the unions? i mean, we talk about unions across america. right now, this battle.

people like chris christie are taking them on. wy wisconsin obviously. this guy goes. a place where they were seemingly gaining power. >> the broader point absolutely stands. when adrian fenty lost that closed primary to vincent gray, it was seen as a brushback pitch by the unions. if you live in a one-party town, we have the money and ability to take you out if you end up reforming too aggressively. that's one of the reasons this isn't a national story. there's also a cautionary tale. sometimes when you want to win in the worst way, you win in the worst way. >> quickly, before we go. vincent gray in the marion barry ballpark yet? everyone may remember the guy who went to jail, was doing crack or cocaine in a hotel room. which is not something we'll talk about on a family program. >> the marion barry ballpark is really specific. we have an illustrious history. i don't think he's yet hit

marion barry levels. but watch out. there's still room to fall. the point is, though with this many levels of accusations of corruption and self-inflicted scandal, it really does distract from the people's business. >> incompetent scumbags. new evidence tonight. george zimmerman. what we want to show you is a never before seen picture. this is a picture of the hoodie and the t-shirt that were actually worn by trayvon martin the night he was killed. the state released hundreds of panel pages of fbi interviews. benjamin krump is an attorney for martin's family. our other guest is a criminal defense attorney. mr. crump, let me start with you. the lead investigators from the police department told the fbi, i want to quote.

quote, zimmerman followed martin not because of his skin color but because of his attire which was similar to hoodies worn by local gang members. what's your initial response to that? >> well, erin, as trayvon parent's and i have said all along, we don't know george zimmerman. we do know he pursued, confronted and shot trayvon martin in the heart for some reason. and we know there's a witness, number nine, who called the police on her own volition to say george zimmerman is a racist. she's a contested witness because they don't want to let what she says out, the special prosecutor said in court, erin, that she would be used as a rebuttal witness, much like in the sandusky trial. >> right, and i want to -- let me follow up on that. because -- do you raise the case of this particular witness, but obviously in the fbi information that has been released, we now

have seen dozens of friends and co-workers who have said zimmerman was not a racist. does that make it more difficult for you or concern you maybe there's more than one but you talk about one person versus many people saying something different. >> no, not at all. friends, people give varying degrees of how they feel about somebody for whatever reason. notth no not, none of that matters why this armed watchman with a 9 millimeter gun got out of his car and chased an unarmed teenager and shot him in the heart. we can't get off the ball. all this other stuff is just distractions. >> paul, what about the law of self-defense? i want to go back to this picture. the exact hoodie that trayvon martin was wearing the night he was killed. paul, does the law of defense allow a defendant to claim that the way somebody was dressed is relevant? i'm referring to the fact they're saying he was dressed

the way local gang members were dressed and that would somehow, according to this theoretically, potentially justify what zimmerman did. >> the answer to that is yes and no. i mean, obviously if you wear a ski mask into a bank, that would suggest you're a robber. and the way you're dressed would certainly be relevant to how people react. now, with the hoodie and the so-called gangsta style of dress. my son in a relatively prosperous suburb, wears hoodies all the time. a lot of people feel threatened by it. ultimately when the judge charges the jury, he'll say to the jury, there's a subjective component. was zimmerman actually fearful? and would a reasonable person in his shoes have been fearful? would somebody at night seeing somebody wearing a dark hoodie be fearful? there's no absolute rule on it. >> and, mr. crumb, final

question, fbi also interviewed zimmerman's ex-fiance. she said he hit her in the mouth because she was chewing gum. that seems very bad for zimmerman. she also said she never heard him express any kind of bias or prejudice. all in, what kind of witness do you think she'll be? swo someone you're looking forward to or not? >> absolutely. the key to this is knowing what was inside zimmerman's head. she also said he had some suicidal tendencies. all that has to be vetted out. erin, for the last time, the fact that i wear a hoodie doesn't justify you killing me. if we started letting people choice of clothes dictate who we can shoot, commit crime against, that's like a woman wearing a skirt and you say that justifies rain. that rape. that's not allowed in america. >> i got to agree with you on that. that's absolutely true. when you judge self-defense, the jury is -- they look at the

whole picture as to what the person was confronted with. that's, you know, that's what the law is -- >> paul -- >> whether you're under threat or not so -- >> -- mark zuckerberg wears a hoodie. >> nobody's saying you -- >> -- young black man -- so how -- when we start allowing it, it opens s up a floodgate t say if minority people wear hoodies, it's okay because they look like criminals. >> well, that has nothing to do with hoodies, that has to do with racism. >> exactly. >> that's the question. all right. thank you to both of you. obviously, that is the crucial question here. was it racism? well, a scathing report says penn state leaders including coach joe paterno concealed sandusky's child abuse allegations for years. joe paterno comes "outfront" next. great shot.

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♪ it's an important day in rock music history. 50 years ago today the rolling stones played their very first gig. on july 12th, 1962.

their first hit, a cover of chuck berry's "come on," came a year later. since then, they have toured. and they have toured. and they have toured. and they may not be done yet. because when they reunited at the marquee club yesterday, keith richards hinted at a new tour. telling "the hollywood reporter," i'm quoting him, there's things in the works. i think it's definitely happening. this is stunning, everybody. the average age of the band is 68. 68. you think what more can they hope to accomplish? why keep touring? that brings us to tonight's number. $558 million. that's how much their last tour in 2007 brought in. during the two-year bigger bang tour they played to 2.5 million people in 32 countries. they time, it was the highest grossing tour of all-time. so it's probably no surprise they want to get back out there. i have to say, isn't it awesome we have people who are 68 years old as amazing rock stars?

we're back with our outer circle. tonight to london. with the olympics just two weeks away. the british government has announced it's going to be using an additional 33,500 troops for security. jim bolt is in london. i asked him how the change will affect security at the olympics. >> reporter: the private company hired to supply 13,000 security guards known as g4s say 9,000 being trained aren't ready yet. the government has designed to deploy an extra 3,500 troops, on top of the more than 13,000 already being deployed. you could say the soldiers have two weeks to get ready. even though some were expected to be on a well-earned leave. or you could say with only two weeks to go before the opening ceremony, how could the publicly traded firm used for everything from wimbledon to red carpet

events to concert, not have planned their training regime better? ironically, extra troops and the security guards, once trained, will mean london has even more security than originally planned. erin. >> our thanks to jim. our fifth story "outfront." a damning report out today. that said that top penn state officials including head football coach joe paterno covered up sex abuse allegations against jerry sandusky for over a decade. it's a 267-page report by former fbi director louis freeh. that says in order to avoid, quote, bad publicity, officials, quote, repeatedly concealed critical facts. jay paterno. the son of the late joe paterno. i know you've got a lot of emotions about your father who just recently died. let me just start by asking you this. the thing that stands out to everybody who's talking about this today. the report says four of the most powerful people at penn state,

including your dad, failed to froth against a child sexual predator. that's the words in the report. and failed to exhibit a striking lack of empathy for sandusky's victims. what's your reaction to that? >> well, i think -- people have to realize this report is not a legal document. this report is a -- it's a report where the burden of proof is much lower than it would be if this was a legal case or legal document. so they've drawn some conclusions here. there are really no new facts in this situation. they've just drawn different conclusions that people have. i think as this case continues to go on, which it will because there's still some cases pending and there's sworn testimony people can look at. i think they'll have a different view of what the real conclusions are. >> did you ever have a heart to heart with your father before he died and ask him the question of, you know, dad why did you not -- when you went and you told someone else about what

happened in the shower when you found out about it from mike mcqueary, why didn't you push it even further, did you ever have that heart to heart? >> no, i mean, we had a conversation about it. he said, look, he said, all i knew to do was to tell -- report it to my superiors. this is not a subject that he was comfortable talking about. this type of thing. but he said, look i knew i had to give it to my superiors because i knew they could handle it better than i could. he said, i felt like that they would handle things. and he said in hindsight, i wish i'd done more. and our statement that the family put out today says just that. >> right, right. well, let me ask you. this is something i'm trying to understand. according to the report that was put out by mr. freeh, tim curley, the former athletic director and the former president graham spanier had decided to report sandusky to the department of public welfare. before that, curley wrote in an e-mail. after giving it more thought and

talking it over with joe yesterday, i'm uncomfortable with what we agreed were the next steps. obviously then at that time they decided to not go that far. obviously, the e-mail makings it sound like your father agreed with not reporting sandusky. do you think your dad felt some sort of level of protection that before going forward with something like this he'd want to have seen it himself. something that can explain that seeming reticence? >> i don't think there was any reticence at all about reporting it. i think what joe is simply stating is, look, we have a -- somebody is reporting something to us that is alleged to have happened. we ought to at least talk to the person who's been accused. that seems to be the tone of the e-mail when you read the entire e-mail. there is no way -- i think there were some conclusions drawn by the freeh commission as to what that wording meant. and i think as -- again, as we go forward and tim curley and gary shultz have their trials that come up some time early next year, what it looks like,

they'll be sworn testimony, more information about this. the thing i think it's important for everybody to understand is this report is by no means ht end of all things that are going to come out. so we'll have more people on the record. there's voices that were not heard by the freeh commission that will be in the court of law. and i think that will help clarify some of these things that are -- even louis freeh himself admits they had to draw some quote/unquote reasonable conclusions. joe wanted us to pursue the truth wherever it took us. i don't think we would have stopped with reasonable conclusions. we want to pursue the truth. >> i guess the thing that seems so challenging to understand is someone comes in and tells you they saw someone raping a child in the shower. obviously your father was very distressed about that. but then nothing happened. i mean, don't you think you'd say something must happen, that you would keep pushing it? >> well, let me clarify that very quickly for you. mike mcqueary has testifyled he did not come in and say he saw a

young man being raped in the shower so that's probably an inaccurate characterization. mike told him he saw something that wasn't right, something that crossed the line. joe reported it to his superiors. >> right. i'll put the quote up here. >> wording has been -- >> let me put the quote up. he said i told him, paterno, what i had seen. i made sure he knew it was sexual and it was wrong. >> correct, but it was, you know, something thats kroed the line, but not a rape, as has been characterized. not that any of that's excusable. but joe reported it to his superiors. which is exactly what he's required to do by the clery act. he has since said he wishes he'd followed up, pursued it more. that's what he has said about that. he'd been very clear on that, never wavered. >> are you disappointed a little bit though, part of you? i know it's got to be hard.

your dad was a hero. is part of you a little disappointed? >> disappointed in him? >> yeah. >> you know, i think what we have to understand is this. we have a lot more information in 2012 than 2011. when you judge people's actions 11 years ago, you have a lot better context. you can't necessarily judge people and their actions 11 years ago based on what you know now. at the time this was reported to joe, jerry had never been charged with a crime. a very -- obviously somebody who was upset about something he had seen came to him. joe went and reported to his superiors. i don't know that i want to condemn somebody or say i'm disappointed because i can't tell you -- i wasn't in his shoes. a lot of people would like to say they would have done differently. it's easy to say that now. >> quick question, just as you're talking, did you always call your dad joe or did you call him dad?

>> well, i worked for him in 17 years. in a professional situation, i referred to him as joe because it made it a lot easier for everyone around in the office rather than in a meeting, calling him dad. it's a hard habit to break. >> you were just saying it, i noticed it. okay. one final quick question. there's been a call to remove your dad's statue from the campus. i know emotionally i'm sure you don't agree. if it would help the campus heal, is that something you would support? >> i don't know that it would help the campus heal. i think there's a lot of people right now -- it's a very emotional issue right now. but i think everybody has to understand there's a long view to this. i think as this case continues, there's going to be more information. i think you want to wait till all the information is, all the facts are in, all the truth is in. i think everybody in this situation, whether it's penn state, whether it's my family, and certainly most of all the victims, deserve to have the truth come out and not necessarily make decisions based

on what louis freeh himself has called reasonable conclusions. >> jake, thanks very much. we appreciate you taking the time tonight. >> thank you, i appreciate it, erin. >> all right, jay paterno, son of joe paterno, the penn state football coach. an. but thanks to the htc one x from at&t, with its built in beats audio, every note sounds amazingly clear. ...making it easy to get lost in the music... and, well... rio vista?!! [ male announcer ] ...lost. introducing the musically enhanced htc one x from at&t. rethink possible.

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td ameritrade's empowering web-based trading platform. trade commission-free for 60 days, and we'll throw in up to $600 when you open an account. we have a great comic story. we'll bring that to you morrto. we wanted to give the extra time to jay paterno. is defending his father and saying the damning report that came out by the former fbi

director louis freeh was not a legal document and wasn't accurate. and it's easy to look in the mirror in the distance and see what happened and it's not really fair to judge his father. tomorrow, a lawyer of one of the victims of jerry sandusky will respond to him and to the freeh report. as i promised, we will have our great comic story, which we think will be a lot of fun, tomorrow. have a wonderful thursday night. we'll see you back here tomorrow. have a great night. erin, thanks. good evening, everyone. a woman who's been making money by tugging at your heart strings and blai inplaying to your patr. she runs a charity that claims to reunite military dogs with personnel they served with overseas. what could be more heart warming and patriotic than that, right? she said the program, called baghdad pups, and her charity were all about helping the troops. >> spca international is, you

know, certainly going to do everything we can to continue to support the military. hopefully the wars will come to an end and we won't be doing anything as dramatic as this. you know, we've become real attached to the fact that military personnel love their animals and we want to do everything we can to keep them together. >> sounds great. it's a noble thing to do, right? if, in fact, that is what terry crisp is doing. instead, keeping them honest tonight, cnn's drew griffin has discovered only a slim fraction of the $26 million that woman raised could even possibly have gone towards rescuing dogs. the charity watchdog group has slim doubts how that slim fraction was spent. as they put it, the numbers don't seem to add up. the appear, reuniting dogs and troops, powerful. just as it was 6 1/2 years ago during hurricane katrina when crisp was running an organization and the appeal was