victor luckerson is a journalist and author based in tulsa who works to bring neglected history to light.

the book he's discussing today built from the fire on the history of tulsa's greenwood district, also known as the ameri because black wall street was the new york times editor's choice selection. victor is a former staff writer at the ringer and a business for time magazine. he was nominated for a national magazine award for his reporting in time on 1923. rosewood massacre. he also manages an email newsletter about underexplored aspects of black called run it back. please give a warm savannah. welcome to victor lucas and.

thank you all so much for being. this is a really packed house then this is the biggest crowd artists that i talked to jared actually about the book. so thank you all so much for being here. thank you to this event. a book for hosting me. at the sheri jacobson and joe and carol young. again thank you. we have to have a lovely dinner like after party last in downtown savannah, which is really fun with sponsors. so thank you so much for that. it's been a really great time here. and you know, for me, actually this is my first book that i've written and my first time actually speaking at a book festival actually came to the savannah book festival, a guest last year sitting in the pews on that side of the audience. and so it's kind of an amazing experience to be seeing how big this place is from this vantage. you know, i'm going to be here talking a little bit about the history greenwood. i don't know what everybody knows about the story yet, but hopefully after this you'll have a clearer sense of what's going on in this over the last 100 years. and i'm going to begin with a really short excerpt from, the book, it's actually the first

paragraph of the first chapter. you know, i remember these words coming to me actually when i first began the actual writing process of the book and about early 2021. and so this is actually one of the first parts of the book that was really like, well, when i began the process and this is how the book opens, they called it the eden of the west. when boosters crafted tales of the land as the creek nation indian territory and eventually oklahoma, they wrote a fertile soil that could grow any crop yielding shoulder high, acres of wheat and melons ready to and their succulent ripeness. they described a righteous realm where any newcomer would have chances with the white man or those who remain in the old world, the deep south, where slaves ought to be killed at any time. most important to henry and kali goodwin they spoke of good schools for colored children, places where the seeds of prosperity could be sown, and the one terrain that cannot be burned, stolen or erased by

interloper. the terrain of the mine. these are the opening words in my book on the history of greenwood built from the fire, and i've been reflecting on them a lot as i've traveled around the country discussing work over the last six months. today i like to take a journey through the terrain of the mine. the question of movements, righteous and rage will begin the pleasure of school boards and library readers are currently battling over the future of american education in the place where the memory of greenwood is spoken in and out of the national consciousness. the last 103 years. now we're going to do a little of imagining today, and i've been a partner with me a little bit on this, and i ask you to imagine something. just close your eyes a little bit. go there with me if you can. so i want you to think about me in 21 years old. just imagine where you were in your life when you were that age and think about your favorite hangout then. oh, there was a bar, a restaurant, your best friend's front porch, maybe even the library you guys shot from across the country to go to a book festival. so it's very possibly a fairer

place in your 21 years old with the library know? i don't know. whatever it was, it was probably something like it on greenwood avenue in tulsa, oklahoma, in the early 1900s, oklahoma was a place where black people thought they could have a fresh as jim crow party sees the deep south with, an ever tightening grip. oklahoma promised better schools, bountiful crops and socially quality. it was like the bright sunshine of the morning of may. i met mississippi, man said after reading about life at west greenwood, it became like oklahoma's brightest star of all imagine living in a place where most of the teachers there high school had master's degrees. that was true. greenwood imagine living in a place where black people own their land than renting it, that was true. greenwood imagine living in a place where wealth was not the defining metric of success, but community involved. that was that was true in greenwood. if we were in the old greenwood

right now, i'd be tech talking to you now at trinity united methodist church at mount zion baptist church, which is built in the heart of the neighborhood with 70,000 bricks and a countless number of prayers after this talk. we did a dinner at susie, those cafe 106 north greenwood avenue, where my mother chicken was neighbor delicacy. once the meal was done, we catch vaudeville, show the dreamland theater, where the line snaked around the block every and just maybe that we swing into a dim like the zulu lounge or ragtime dominated the piano and a substance called chuck beer looked like juice. it tasted like a good friday night. would you bet we'd meet women? lulu williams, the famous amusement queen who owned the dreamland theater and a leopard print coat to match it. men like j.b. stratford, owner of the largest back hotel in the united states. maybe a little beautician who was so good with her hair. she even gave us a few men she could save.

the receding hairlines and j.h. goodwin help though tulsa's first black hospital. what a community. what a community contributed to you. goodwin once wrote can only be measured in terms of what you give back that community by 1921. greenwood. greenwood filled with doctors, attorneys, writers hoteliers and shop owners here the terrain of the mind was his burden. at the spring meadow, as greenwood championed black independence black entrepreneurship, black strength. mary jones, parrish, a local typing teacher, was one of the first people to call it the -- wall. but more than riches was you, parrish greenwood was, quote the wonderful cooperation, observed our people just this terrain. but this terrain, the agreement it cultivated, it was contested neighborhood success starts on the in the minds of many white oklahomans. oklahoma, at its founding a declared that black ambition and intellect were at odds with the white agenda.

as a rule, -- are failures as lawyers, doctors and other professions. william murray, a future governor, governor of oklahoma, said of the state's constitutional convention. it is an entirely false notion that the -- can rise to the equal of the white man. not long after murray speech, the state showed a show to segregate train cars, even phone booths in tulsa, interracial baseball games were banned. harper hateful rhetoric and dehumanizing laws inevitably lead to violence and so it was in these united states during the 19 tens. lynchings became regular occurrence across the deep south and its appendage. oklahoma race riots spread across the country during a period so bloody became known the red summer. the violence seem to be creeping closer to green greenwood with each passing year and the nearby town of wagner, when a black woman was lynched, hanged on main street. the local white press declared that the lynching gave the

community a peaceful and helpful appearance. now we're going to imagine. i want you to imagine they were back on greenwood avenue. it's may 31st, 1921. the streets are once again torn with people, but the energy is different. fear, anxiety, anger. a black shoeshine boy named -- roland has been falsely accused of attempting to rape a woman. a salacious, salacious headline in the white newspaper reads nab -- for girl in elevator. everyone in greenwood and, in white tulsa has seen the story or the accused boy sits in the county jail house where it is a group of white men and women, even are headed to the jail to rape him from his cell and lynch him on the streets of. men are gathering weapons and planning a march to the courthouse where. they will protect the boy and face down any white who gets in their way. no, the cost.

do you stay or? do you go? ultimately, a group of about 75 armed black men marched, the jailhouse. many of these men, world war one veterans who have served their country abroad and returned new notions of black equality when they reached the jail the black veterans demanded the release of rolling, but the police refused. soon a black soldier and a white man scuffled over a gun. and then went off and all hell broke loose during the night, black and white men shot at each other through the streets of downtown tulsa. the violence was brutal. one black man was jacked behind a car with rope around his neck. another was shot, ran out of a downtown alley, then surrounded by a mob brandishing knives. members of the white mob broke into a hardware store and attempted to seize a national guard armory. many of them are deputized by the tulsa police department. a white man named laura buck

recalled going on the police station and being told by an officer, quote, get a gun and get busy and try to get a --. the black man who escaped the initial shootout retreated to greenwood to defend their home. but the mob has something worse planned. at dawn following morning, as many as 5000 white oklahomans invaded the greenwood district, brandishing guns, kerosene and matches. fires were set systematically. a team of white men, some of them deputized by police, would enter, chosen home and blow the lock up the door if necessary. they smashed the inside. wrenching open drawers, tearing down window drapes. after gathering the bedding, furniture and other flammable items into the center of a room, the men doused objects in kerosene. then a ladder match. each blaze conjured in the twilight tone its own story. over the next several hours, white also laid siege to

greenwood, destroying more than 1200 homes, razing hundreds businesses and killing as many as 300 people. the most harrowing statistic there were six stillborn babies lost in the chaos of the invasion, the tulsa race massacre. as the event was later known within the worst racial acts of terror in the history, the united states. now, if you're sitting with me in this room today, there's chance chances are high. you've already heard about the broad strokes of this story. in recent years have been featured in television like watchmen, lovecraft, country documentaries. it's been caused a sitting u.s. president. president biden came tulsa 19 2021 and acknowledged the race massacre. history the fact that event is no longer completely buried is progress. for a nation that often refuses, understand itself and its history. but i'm here to argue, the greenwood story is much bigger than those 36 hours of destruction. black life cannot be defined by

the mob. and so i hope that by the time we finish talking today, when you think of greenwood, you won't think of angry white men wielding, torches and shotguns. you think of the people who call this place home and rebuild their lives a cataclysm. my mind always goes back to a meeting that took place about two weeks after the massacre. greenland looked like a war zone. all the buildings have been reduced. rubble and all the trees of their foliage. one of the few structures left standing was baptist church, where neighbor leaders held an emergency meeting. j.w., who was the principal of the elementary school. some up greenwood's mentality when. he got up to speak. you said, i'm going to hold what i have until i get what i lost. despite the odds, greenwood rebuilt. a barber took a chair out to the burned out district as the rubble still smoldered and offered to cut hair. dreamland theater became a makeshift amphitheater showing films in an open air on muggy

summer nights. attorney b.s. franklin fended off a scheme to seize greenwood land while working a tent working out of a tent. he set up amidst the destruction. he on with a lone wooden desk. a few salvaged logbooks and a single typewriter. within weeks of the the neighborhood with a sea of white canvas. by christmas, those tend to be replaced by hundreds of reconstruct buildings. by 1925, greenwood was once humming with hotels, storefronts and the proud dreamland theater. when w.e.b. dubois greenwood in 1926, he said, quote, scars are there for the near but impudent and noisy. it believes in itself. greenwood enjoyed a second heyday at a stretch from the 1930s to the 1950s. more than 400 businesses filled the district. musicians from count basie, the b.b. king's, etta james all performed back on venues in tulsa steak and frog legs, where a local women in skirt and mini bermuda shorts started down the

stroll every friday night. residents proudly referred the neighborhood as little harlem. and, yes, the -- street greenway story was a black america story. let me give you an example. so in this book that i've actually, for one family in particular, the goodwin family, they came to tolson, 14. they survived the race massacre. and this man, ed goodwin, actually was a senior high school at the time of the race massacre. he survives the massacre. he goes up at this university. he goes by the tulsa to greenwood to become an entrepreneur. and so i found out that he been owned a shoeshine shop in greenwood. he became an attorney. its family bought, a black newspaper, the eagle. but i also found out that he was really involved. might be underwrote of greenwood, which is kind of surprising to me. and the greenwood there's a game called the numbers that was very popular and anybody here familiar with the numbers or the policy anyhow play the number you can admit you play the numbers. anybody. so the numbers was a sort of by the lottery back in the day basically you know the numbers basically there would be one between 76 are the numbers if

your number hit between that range, you would get a payout. and so ed goodwin became the kind of policy king of greenwood, this gambling kingpin who kind of ran gambling in greenwood. he was alive and bootlegging and all that kind of activities. and so know when i was doing my research, i always thought that my mom was on my research all the time. what i was finding out. and so one day i called my mom and i said mom, this guy had given what i thought was like a civil rights hero and really upstanding. he also was involved in gambling and bootlegging and this is kind of crazy, don't you think? and then my mom said, well, you know, your granddaughter did same thing, right? and so that was a big shock for me. and alabama. we were known to my son to i didn't know that. but it was actually a really good lesson because it really illustrated to me that especially black folks in that era, there was direct path to the middle class. you know, there was no there is the red carpet. you had to get there how you get there. and so i think everybody maybe taken to your family's path, you might find a surprise like i did. right. that's terrific. these guys are programed.

so greenwood's ability to come roaring back, destruction, it can not escape the gears of so-called progress at century war on. in the 1960s, a slippery new term called urban renewal remedies wormed its way into government lexicon. the idea was to revitalize urban communities and revive better living for residents. but in reality neighborhoods like greenwood labeled as blighted and the people living there, were forced to move miles away, to make room for serving whiter, wealthier residents. goodwin's family was forced to leave their home on richmond avenue, while the newspaper office demolished to make room for an interstate highway. by 1975, only half a block remained of what it once been, one of the most successful black business districts in all of the united states. it's reign of the mind and the physical terrain are deeply intertwined with without preserving the physical spaces that honor the past. it's easy for the to slip out of living memory.

that almost happened in greenwood. for decades, the white press ignored every anniversary of the massacre in the 1970s, writing right writers as tried to uncover the truth about the event. death threats. many survivors didn't tell their children what had happened to them. having been robbed of generational wealth, then they didn't want to pass on trauma as an inheritance. now we're going to imagine one more time. i want to imagine once again the young greenwood avenue. it's may 31st, 2018. a small group of about 25 people have gathered for a vigil to acknowledge the 97th anniversary of the race massacre and mourn those who perished. the roar of an interstate highway looming above drowns out any attempt at quiet reflection. and all around the vigil, hundreds of people are streaming past us toward the sports stadium that recently built on this very block. the tulsa drillers are putting the san antonio missions and minor baseball. the juxtaposition might be funny

if it weren't so obscene that day in 2018, with my first day stepping foot on greenwood avenue. i was a young journalist working in l.a. and i've missed my editors. i mean, it's also trying ask about the famed black wall street and over me, how i enjoyed this story initially. i remember that i was having lunch with a friend when lived in atlanta, working as a business journalist and. we came up, we started talking about the film the slave. you may have seen the movie 12 years a slave. she laughed at. so my friend, about my age, we're both by 27, 28 years old. my friend was saying he hadn't seen the movie. he didn't want to see it because he was tired of seeing black folks only to pick the historical undergoing trauma. you know, you think about most of the black narratives that get fed through hollywood movies, or even when you learn about a history books often as black being whipped as slaves before the civil war, sick vidal's in the civil rights movement, and we don't really get outside of those depictions. and so i asked my friend

actually, have you ever heard of black wall street? that's a story about us successful. my friend. never heard of black wall street. this is before watchmen, before president trump or president biden visited greenwood, you know, before all of this national attention it happened. and so for me, the motivation was to be able to tell this about black success of black solidarity to my friend and others like him. that was really what guided me to convince my editors to let me out. an article about black wall street, which would have me go to the neighborhood on that day 2018, when the vigil coincided with with this baseball game, seeing how much the neighborhood legacy been diminished depressed me, angered me, even. but it also gave me the motivation to want to go far beyond just writing one article about a year later i quit my job pegged to my life, made black country music playlist and west to tulsa. that was the old town road job. road wrote that song. that was the year i moved to tulsa and the year i'm leaving tulsa the obvious job in the country.

album sales like both full circle moment so but really you know i knew that the only way to really tell greenwood story and authentic way was to become become part of it in a way. when i moved to greenwood, i soon learned that it was a place of contradictions, part hallowed ground, part tourist destination, part black business district, part gentrified, playground, walk the streets and you would find plaques placed on the sidewalk. what was destroyed? susie bell café destroyed in 1921. never reopened. but these plaques about luxury apartments and why don't restaurants they had little to do with greenwood's heritage? instead of having the black owned stafford hotel, we had the holiday inn, and yet the people of greenwood continue to depend to defend and honor the train they have left going the newspaper, the oklahoma eagle still has now some greenwood avenue, the last piece of property in the area owned by a black family ed son, an 83 year

old attorney has been charged with publishing a paper for more than 40 years and his granddaughter, regina goodwin, is represented in the oklahoma legislature and represents the greenwood district today, there are two known living survivors of the tulsa race massacre, lesley benefit randle and fletcher, both 109 years old. they are spry, strong and they'll smile warmly when you say, hey miss fletcher or hey miss randle, i'm going to spend a lot of time with both these. and it really is amazing how how whether they are you know, when i first approached them, i was kind of doing it with like the porcelain gloves, like, you know, i hope don't break. i'm not going to break. i'm here. i'm on alert, you know. so it's been really a pleasure to get to know those folks. but their time on this earth, like all of ours, is limited. they're living survivor. he's been ellis passed away last october at the age of 102. the survivors are part of a new reparations lawsuit seeking

justice. justice on behalf of the entire community. several massacre descendants were originally of the lawsuit as well, but tulsa county judge recently ruled the notice this could be part of the suit. that means when these survivors pass away, their pursuit of justice goes with them. and tulsa and oklahoma and america, the arbiters of so-called justice, are patiently eyeing the hourglass and their understanding of time. it's backwards and untreated wound, not here as the years go by. if festers and on payday is not wiped from the books, it accrues interest. greenwood's ancestors, the ones who witness its creation and cataclysms, must all eventually silent. yet their soul still stir in the voices of their descendants and their growing number of allies around nation. what they led to be 100 or tonight is my last night. there's going to be a generation after me. regina goodwin once told me.

as long as folks are being born, we to make sure people understand what we've got to fight and why. we've got to present one word. the story of greenwood has been quiet for far too long. finally, people are listening. you're now carriage. this story was not just black history, american history. the terrain of the mind is under attack. our country today. but the denizens of greenwood could defend land and their people with such courage. the least we can do it depend their legacies. thank you all so much. you. in the questions? let me let me just ask to come up. all right. we certainly were transported, weren't we, in our imaginations. and it was a terrific presentation.

if you have questions. now is the time and the microphone is here and i'm sure mr. lucas will enjoy answering your questions. okay. i'll be the person brave souls. victor. hello. hi. margaret coker, lydia and savannah. but i. i'm a military brat. we to oklahoma. when i started high school in ninth grade. you had to one semester of oklahoma history and one semester of world history. and we did not learn a thing about greenwood in my oklahoma class 30 years ago. could you speak to how the state as curriculum or as a state? schools, public schools are now teaching. oklahoma is about this. yes. yeah thank you. the question was about how much students in oklahoma learn about

the race massacre. to your point, i talk to people all ages from greenwood white, black or far from tulsa, white and black. and so many of them have told me that they never learned about this in school, let alone any of us who grew up outside of oklahoma. there's been, i think, some technical things done to make that more prevalent. so for example, teaching about the race massacre as part of the oklahoma state standards. now, however. so it varies from teacher to teacher. and also now the state superintendent named ryan walters, who is very kind of on a crusade against critical race theory. at one point a while ago, he was questioned about tulsa massacre and had a quote along the lines of, well, it wasn't really about race. and so it's kind of a situation where though technically the state is required to teach students, there's a lot of pressure, teachers feel, to not teach the history. and i can also say, actually, that i spoke to some at oklahoma state last fall read my book in the class. so a lot of those who are from oklahoma and they had not learned about it in their schools, that's current, you know, 18, 19 year olds are not getting this history,

unfortunately. i was at greenwood two years or so ago. how did the area become this sort of upscale, artsy, you know, very, very artsy. thank you. the question. so, as i mentioned in my talk it is definitely a space that's transformed a lot. so a lot of areas that are don't really serve the shop or bring the community. there's kind of two steps to how it transformed the first with urban renewal. so the vast majority, the neighborhood was actually cleared in the 1970s doing urban i know process and you know in some cities in urban renewal you would have the black land be replaced by like a civic center or a stadium or that kind of thing and greenwood going actually made empty. so they actually were more than 200 acres of land in green where they were just empty 30 or 40 years. and and 2010 is when they decided to build a baseball in the neighborhood. and that baseball essentially spurred a lot of really rapid gentrification. and so if you go there now, there are two or there is open

eagle and two other old buildings that are built after the race massacre that still have some black owned businesses in them. and most of the neighborhood is baseball stadium holiday inn, luxury apartments. i would say probably the vast majority. the neighborhood actually does not serve the history of greenwood or the black folks who are from there. because it's know. but my question, what do you hope that people will take away from your book? what is the message that you're delivering delivering. in terms of message? i would really encourage folks when they read book and are going through it to think about the parallels to wherever you're from, no matter what of aspect greenwood you're looking at, it actually reflects of of all of black america. like i said so there are lots black communities with thriving business districts in the jim crow era, for example, racial violence and the time of night around 1921 hit more than 50

cities across the united states. urban renewal decimated black communities. no matter you're from the interstate highway that goes through the city and probably cut through a black neighborhood back in the day. and so i really think more about thinking about how these things in greenwood, what's going on in your own. and at i was wondering if you could tell story of lula williams and her rings. one of my favorite things about the book is that although it is a history and i'm learning a lot about redlining gentrification there are these really personal narratives that you were able to get from family members. i just think everyone would like to hear thank you. thank you for the question. so i mentioned lulu, angela earlier, my talk and she definitely was one of the most interesting people to research the lou williams owned the dreamland theater and i that my first sort of point to her was this photograph of lula, her husband john, and their son w.d.

they were in this norwalk car, which is kind of like the royce of like the model tierra, basically. so they're this really fancy car and they're wondering what avenue. but lou is in the passenger seat and is in the driver's seat. and i made a lot of assumptions, the relationship, to be honest with you, based on this photo. but my family were quickly disrupted by the my research. and so as of my research for the book, i did a lot of looking at the property records of places. and so when i looked at the property records of the dreamland theater, i actually found the sign affidavit by lula. and lula had gone the courthouse and put out this affidavit that said, i, lula williams, myself on the dreamland theater. i owned the projector i owned the popcorn machine. i owned the seats. i owned all of this down. was nothing. yeah. and they they essentially they separated their assets and lula was really the owner of that property. and everything inside of it. and so that really compelled me to really transform how portraying her in the story. and so when you read the book, you get to learn a lot about luis independence. however, what's really sad about

her story is the fact that lula's family is one of the hardest hit by the race massacre. the dreamland itself was destroyed and she also owned a confectionery that was destroyed their home was destroyed. and afterwards, the dreamland was rebuilt. but lula never fully recovered. she had a lot of mental and physical that are pretty consistent with post-traumatic stress disorder. and she actually passed away in 1927, shortly after the massacre. and so through her story, you sort of see all of the of greenwood, but also the tragedy, what unfolded in 1921. could you say something about significance of the oklahoma eagle holding that community together through all those years of those changes and the fact that it's still operating? oh, yeah. yes. so on same trip that i went to the first time with the baseball game, i also got a chance to go to the oakland eagle office. so if you're if you're going to imagine one more time, if you're in greenwood and you're looking like northridge, where the interstate is right to your right. there's like an old kind of beat

up looking out garage with the oklahoma eagle name on top of it. and so i remember the time i went to go visit the eagle office because there's an auto garage. there's one side of the building has like the big like engines for cars, basically. and so i went to that and just i was like trying to call jim goodwin, who was a paper. and i kept like i was like, i'm here. he was like, you know, you're not like, you're late. i'm like, i'm here. i think right there is an anomaly just on the other side of the building that he was at. and so he finally in, he's like, you're late. i'm i'm sorry but luckily he was actually really generous with his time and his story. and ultimately, it was jimmy really helped me understand how important the it was to this neighborhood. the oakland itself actually started in 1922, right after the race massacre and the goodwin family purchased, the eagle in 1938. and i've owned it ever since. and for me as a journalist researcher having access to that archive vital because you really get a good of both the sort of big picture civil rights that were unfolding and all that kind

of stuff. but also just like day to day life. so you would have like on the front page of the eagle about like the sit ins going on in, but inside the paper you'd have column called scoop on the scoop, which is a gossip that everyone's wife, jean, wrote every week. and for me, it was really important to have both that high stakes battle over future of america that i think bycatch is often a pawn to convey with. but i think to be able to show that day to day rhythm, heartbeat of black life and the eagle has both, which is great. are you working another book at this time? no. right now i'm trying to just on the time tell the story of greenwood to a lot more folks. the question i have, i have i have another project coming up yet. i do have ambitions to do and more books. but i think for now just the story of greenwood around the country is the goal. so i a local media cover what happened right after. thank you for the question. so the rice massacre was covered

in the white press in tulsa. however, there's certain unsurprisingly, a lot of mischaracterization of what had happened. for example, let's called a race riot the time which sort of portrayed things as being an even handed battle between blacks and whites. and actually, there was actually a column written in the tulsa tribune. so that's the newspaper that wrote the first article that kind of sparked everything. three days after the race massacre, they wrote a column which they said that old place called -- town should never be rebuilt. and so that was where the mentality of the white press, they were covering what was happening, but they were doing in a really skewed manner that made it seem like greenlee, responsible for its own destruction. you enjoy being an artist in residence at tulsa university of tulsa? oh, yes, i'm also an artist in residence or writer in residence, rather, at the university of tulsa. that's been a really good opportunity to have the students and actually shared a lot of my research documents with them. they're my research, actually. i able to get a list of all of the lawsuits that race massacre

victims filed in the 1920s. at the time, more than 200 property owners filed lawsuits against city of tulsa and the insurance companies seeking restitution. it's kind of funny. i was able to get this stuff because it's kind of one of those thing in my here try to do research. we really been involved in journalism a lot of times. like what can get is a kind of based on who you know. and so these documents been sitting in the one, they really analyze them before, but they're basically sitting at the tulsa county courthouse and. all i had to really do, what i had to do would be rent a court name kizzy. and so when i met kizzy, keith was able to give all these documents on a cd-rom. i didn't have a city on fire anymore. i had to find a cd rom player, then upload documents. but i was able to, after a lot work, i was able to get the documents and i've shared those with law school students at, the university tulsa, and so they're actually like taking those losses and diving deeper. why that happened and why i think it justice when they is. well, thank you very much.

thank you.