down. he became more courageous. it have been easy just to stick to voting rights and. keep working on where he had some success. but no, he goes to chicago, he goes to los angeles. he speaks out against the vietnam war. that kind of moral courage to me is, you know, beyond inspiring. and it just spending that much time thinking about the choices that he made, you know, forever changed me. and i'll to you afterwards about lou gehrig, because my brain just won't go there right now. thank. stand again and again. right. i often think about what america we would have without the loss the early loss of lincoln, kennedy and martin luther king. could you speak to the momentum that was cut off after his death? you know something that, a lot

of black activists after the assassination said is that we kill our prophets in america and we ought to do a study on the effects of assassin nation on american history. i'm not an expert, but when you think about the ideas that were lost, we think about the courage that was lost and and why, you know, we blame the you know, we can talk all day about conspiracy theories, but it's clear that and this is something harry belafonte preached the way to the end that we don't like radicals in this country. we're uncomfortable with radicals, even though we're a country born of revolution. we don't teach radicalism in our schools. we have managed to portray it as a bad thing. and look how many our radicals have been eliminated because of that, because we've created that culture. i think, okay, let's do right here in the middle. just a second. let's go to to you.

hi. thank you very much for coming to speak with us this evening. i am the generation of elementary that you talked about. i up watching my friend martin and growing up with this very idealized of martin luther king and being taught that the civil rights movement was over, that equality had been achieved once. we elected a black president. as we can see, the civil rights movement has not ended. it has transformed. it's taken on different focuses. so it's shifted away from segregation and towards police brutality to justice. my question to you is what impact do you see that has lasted across the decades since martin luther king's death that is embodied in the civil rights movement today? you know i think that and i'd love to hear your response to that question, too, but i think that what's the thread that unifies the civil rights movement and always has

abolition to today is among other things black dignity, true justice. the ideas that king talked in the bible, that we are all made the image of god and that only man has invented these arbitrary divisions and that quest for dignity is a line. and it's whether you're talking about police brutality, whether you talk about voting rights then or now, voting. it's about dignity if we're teaching people, if we're teaching people to, understand and apply dignity and equality, then we're we're you know, we're doing the right and but it doesn't have to be that doesn't it shouldn't be so complicated. what would you say. unfortunately, i did not hear the second part of your question, your statement. and so i trust that he gave the right answer. you would have been better at that one. for his jonathan.

valerie, could you all spend a moment on on the aftermath, dr. king, in terms of the people he trained and house is influence continued whether it was andy young as mayor or maynard jackson, john lewis had a to me his genius was as a manager of these very strong personalities ranging from stokely carmichael to john lewis to the women who about him but he gifted them with a sense of leadership and commitment to the struggle that went on after his. people talk about the did the spiraling down of sclc and traditional civil rights organizations but the world is different because of andrew young. the world was different because of being a jackson. needless to say, the world didn't because lewis and he has a constellation people. what the fauntroy whitey walker fred shuttlesworth people sprinkle the poor across the south and the rest of the united states. and i think sometimes when we write these biographies of dr.

king. now, just because i haven't read it. but but think what happens is that he all this happened and no one says no in fact his students, his pupils, his acolytes went on to do even more. so in your conversations, his compatriots and and all the folks that you're interviewed that any of this ever come out? well, the actions speak for themselves, because those people that you mentioned, you know, on to do great things. and i would include coretta scott king on that list of course. but what about you? what's your take on that? how did the the heirs or the people who inherited the the movement, how did they. i think inspired by king. i think those who were paying attention were inspired and jean, i might have to differ with your word manwich, because i don't think i don't think dr. king advantage any of those people. what he did do was influence them. now. and we went from he said, dr. king used to say civil to you guys, like managing a of well well you can't do that can you.

so but it's the influence is the lasting influence is. and i think that comes from speaking the truth because the truth will outlast a lot of things, it might take a long time to get back to that path, but eventually it will and people like benjamin mays made a great influence on man. it that i'm still quoting benjamin mays. you know. so i think the the trickle down the trickle down influence respect, dignity and a search for truth and a love of mankind is what all of those acolytes, as you said got from from dr. martin luther king. and i just pray that they keep on keeping on. yeah. you know, and that your children, you and my and my

daughters, you know, will be able to reflect it. also. and i think i'm going to take the privilege. the last question and i was just thinking about the amount of detail you in your book, some of it flattering, some of it not flattering. and i wonder, do you think that makes him a it makes something makes him someone that we can all relate to. he's just a myth. he's a person like you and and perhaps gives us hope that. we all have the opportunity to do the kinds of things that he's done. i think that's essential. and it's you know, central to what i was trying to do with this book. i have a paragraph early on the book where i say, you know, he chewed his fingernails. he had a dog named topsy. he couldn't save his skin, was too sensitive. so at the same time, as we

discussed, he was a progressive in every way. he had a hard to a blind spot when it came to women in roles of leadership. let's let's accept the fact he was human. let's look at and again, those little details. that's just that brings him to life. that's how i feel like i want you to read this book and feel like you got to spend some time with him, that you got to know him better and i want you to feel the loss that. we we all should feel that that this man was only with us for 39 years and that we as a country could take care of him and, that we didn't you know, we deserved he deserved better and we deserve better. and you can only really feel that kind of pain. think if you if you love him when you read the book. and i hope that's true. you mentioned story but that you talk about -- gregory believe it was was it -- gregory that said that he was the reason you should not lose this it was about -- gregory saying that a

movie had been made about martin luther king, which is which made him a real hero. he said to me. jesus was real. okay, here we go. all right. but we don't really we can't really prove it. right? we can prove martin luther king was real because we were here. i mean, i met him and we have him on film. we have him on tape. no. what happens, no matter how many hundreds of years from now, no one's going to be able to deny that martin luther king was real. but i would argue that if we go too far in him into a mythological figure, you lose sight of how real he was and. -- gregory knew it. people from atlanta who are still with us today, who knew him could feel his reality. and we just need to keep him alive in that way. right? very good. thank youi stand here today as d

michigan alumnus, but also as an even prouder parent of one of the graduates. and when i told my son jonas that i would be today's graduation speaker, his reaction was probably the same as many of yours. and this is a direct quote. what my son actually said you not tom brady.

there's so many people they can pick. and he goes on, it's like a 13th seed winning march madness is so first. thank you to the people who believe in the 13th seed president. you know, and the regents, including mark bernstein, my michigan classmate and friend, distinguished faculty guests and staff, special love to all the families and friends, including my own who came here to celebrate the reason we are all here today. the class. of 2024. from the start, it hasn't been easy for you. you were born just before or in the aftermath of 911. all of us worrying about the world that lay ahead of you. 19 years later, covid hit taking

millions of lives and turning your first year here. upside down. it didn't stop you for so many this is your first proper graduation since middle school. you know how long we've all been waiting for this day. we all have passed versions of ourselves, all of us here, including me. at 22 years old, i was graduating from michigan. i remember sitting right there. i'll never forget that it was the year that football star desmond howard won the heisman trophy and speech amidst speech, the graduation speaker called desmond howard's name and he stood up and in full cap and gown. did the heisman pose. i remember thinking, i love being part of michigan and seeing that excel.

and from one of my classmates. and as i look at the journey, 22 year old me up there to 54 year old me standing here, it defies a logic. there are many things that science and math can explain when someone offers you a breath mint, take it. learn the uber drivers name. if you're nice to me and a jerk to the waiter, you're a jerk. but some things are unexplainable. they're just magic. as a writer, that's my job. making things appear out of thin air. so that's what i'd like to discuss today. how to make magic. of course, that sounds absurd. real magic doesn't exist. but when you ask professional magicians, they'll tell you they're actually four types of magic tricks. that's it. put aside illusions and escapes. there's just four types of tricks.

one, you make something appear to you, make something disappear. three, you take two things and switch places. and number four, you change one thing into something else. so the first way for you to make magic, you make something appear, and what you need to make appear is you. i'm not talking about showing up, but making the best version of you appear. we're all chameleons. we act one way with our parents, another way with our friends. but as the writer tim urban explains, underneath all those outer use is an inner you. that's who you really are. down deep. the ultimate version of you, the one where you feel the most confident and secure, where you're fully present and focused. that version only comes out with people you're comfortable with and you appreciate the real you and love you for it. when i graduated michigan, my

first job was in boston with a boss who said he'd be my mentor, and i was so excited. but the week i got to boston, my boss left the job. i thought my life was ruined so that night in some rundown sports bar, i told my girlfriend, i know what i'm going to do with this year when all of us, all of us would do in a moment where we think our lives are ruined. i said, i'm going to write a novel. and my girlfriend had the best reaction of all. she didn't laugh. she told me, go book, go write that novel. she believed in that version of me, that girlfriend gave me lift when i finally wrote that book, i got 24 rejection letters. there were only 20 publishers at the time, and i got 24 rejection letters that mean some people were writing me twice to make sure i got the points. but i said, if they don't like that book, i'll write another.

and if they don't like that book, i'll write another. i realized i want it to be a novelist and my girlfriend. she didn't laugh at that either. that next book did get published. i owe her forever for that lift she gave me. why do you think i married her? she's here in the stadium. the mother of my graduate. and can we hear it for every strong mother, father? grand parents, whoever it is who helped raise you, whether they're here today or not, when it's here for them in the big house. something happens. when i got that unconditional support. professor jane dutton calls it a reflected best self portrait. when someone you trust sees your potential and they believe you can be that person, it opens up a path and inspires you to become that version yourself. that's why the friends you're

sitting next to right now matter. you hold tight to them. their love and trust are key ingredients because when you leave here, your mission is to make the best version of you appear and then watch surprise yourself, build something that can't be ignored will be the ones cheering which leads to the second way to make magic. you make something disappear and it's tempting to say that you should make fear disappear. but let me challenge that. in high school i had a job scooping ice cream at the haagen-dazs in the oven all. and one day this woman came up and she started snapping her at me. you need to serve me, she barked. i said, mama, be right with you. and now she says. and we go back and forth. and eventually i say to her, you know what, ma'am? you're being rude. i'm not serving you. you better serve me. she'll. and when i refused, she screamed in my face. you're going to be working in this miserable ice cream store for the rest of your miserable life.

and i can't. she told her, ma'am, if i am working here for the rest of my miserable life, you're still never getting any ice cream. and for decades i used to tell that story laughing, saying it never even bothered me. but i need to admit here it did bother me. it terrified me. my dad struggled financially his whole life and it made me feel like my life would be filled with that same financial struggle. but i now also realize that fear, that fear this woman brought out of me. if you told me it drove me. it's the same thing. our football team did this year. how do you think michigan versus everybody worked that feeling when we lost our coach, everyone telling us we were done and finished. god, did it feel good to fight back, to beat penn state, beat ohio state for the third time, go to the rose bowl right, go to

the rose bowl and come on. you know what's coming? winning the national championship. your senior year. so, yes, make your fear disappear here, but not because fear is bad. use your fear to harness it. let them underestimate you in the end, don't vanquish your critics. prove them wrong. which leads me to the third way to make magic. you make two things change places with each other. and here, let's talk about empathy. that's what empathy is. switching places with someone else and putting yourself in their shoes. when i was 13 years old, my dad lost his job. he barely had any savings and we had no place to live. so my parents moved us from brooklyn, new york, to miami,

florida, where my grandparents lived. so we could stay with them until we got back on our feet. and four months, six of us, my mom dad, sister, myself, plus two grandparents, lived in a tiny one bedroom apartment. and since it was florida, all the condo commandos complained that we couldn't have that many people in such a small space. and then one day, the neighbor across the hall told my grandmother that she'd leave her own apartment and give it to my grandparents. so we could use it. so my family could have some space and comfort and not have to worry about those who wanted to evict us. i remember her name as mercy, which is a kid i always heard as. make no mistake, mercy and empathy is what she showed us today. cruelty and venom, harshly

judging those we disagree with. it's become sport in our culture, but cruelty and venom on proof of strength. there are signs of weakness and petty insecurity. what takes strength is switching places and putting yourself in someone else's shoes. and not easy, right? it's not easy. in fact, studies show studies show that when we too much bad news, our brains overwhelmed. that's why we change the we swipe to a new app and shut down. do not shut down. we need. if you shut down, we're in trouble. today in the stands, there are families experienced in divorce and financial. some of your fellow are fighting cancer. two are getting posthumous degrees today since they passed away and many have buried parents and grandparents during their time in. michigan. every family in this stadium has

someone who they wish could be here today. i wish my parents alive to see my kids today, to see that we're. as you go through life, every person you encounter is battling something you can't see. the solution. switching places and feeling empathy as the saying goes. one day someone is going to hug you so tight that all of your broken pieces will fit back together. the world needs more empathy, more humility, and certainly more decency. if you really want to shock the world unleash your kindness. that's a completely naive idea. but it's an idea worth fighting for. now, we talked about the magic of making something appear. making something disappear and making two things switch places. which leaves us with the final way to make magic.

changing one thing into something else. the hardest trick of all transformation. who you are today isn't the person you'll be in the future. graduation may feel like finale, but it's not an endpoint. so let me just say it never stops changing. when i was little, my favorite in the amusement park was the of mirrors. some people love watching little kids crash into the glass. i loved because i had hair back then and it was glorious. but what i really loved about the hall of mirrors was how you could turn your head just slightly and all those versions of you would appear all. the possibilities as we get older, it's human nature to see just one version to get locked. ways of thinking about the world. about your life path. about who you are. but as friend recently told me, when you write things in stone, everything becomes hard and

brittle and starts collecting dust as you leave michigan in pencil and be unafraid to use the eraser. the person thinks they're the smartest in the room. i promise you, is not the in the room. that's just the one with the most fragile ego, the most sophisticated and, intelligent people i know are the ones willing to challenge their thinking and admit there's more to learn. life will absolutely not be what you think it will be. it will be hard and wonderful and messy and rewarding. with more versions of you than you think possible. the only immutable fact is you should never be immutable. keep transform in learning and never think you know it all. instead, see in the hall of mirrors endless possibilities. now you know the four ways to make magic. you make the best version of you appear. make fear disappear and harness it. switch places to find empathy.

and never stop transforming. so let me reveal the step. what all four tricks have in common? they take effort. they take you things just appear or disappear themselves. making magic. figuring out who you are. takes work time and intentionality. as writers, simon sinek, remind me. that's how magic is. full commitment to the bit or an awful was a part. so many people so many people sacrifice get you here today but that love is not left in the stadium. wherever you go, the best part is michigan never leaves you. we even have our own abracadabra magic word. you'll see. you'll be in an airport and your spot that block him on someone and you'll whisper without even thinking the magic words go

below. and that person, that person will nod and you'll instantly be transported back to this place like magic. and you will make plans and come with your friends, all of you wearing your own black m's, opening shirts to show them off like superman's big red s, and then maybe one day you'll come back proudly to watch your child like we're watching all of you the unstoppable class of 2024 become michigan graduates. and that's the best trick of all. you're graduating the university of. you already won. that's it. you won. like. i said, like i said, are past versions of all of us. and the only thing i know for sure is if that past version of you could see you. now, they would look at you in. as for that past version of me,

i see myself at 22 sitting in my own cap and gown watching desmond howard do his pose as the graduates. and it reminds me the magic is never for yourself. it's gift you give other people, and that's the real reveal. in our time together, i use magic as metaphor, but real magic, the most powerful magic that comes from making memories. memories that endure or like cherish. memories. so power that even though they happened years ago, you can feel them now. see them now conjured out of thin air. that's the thing about time and memory. they're slippery. which is why the best magicians always have a final trick up their sleeve. sometimes is hiding right in front you the entire time. class of 2024. ladies and gentlemen, please. my friend jasmin howard.

here's the thing, though. here's the thing. if you want to be the best magician, you got to top your last trick. class of 2024. it's your turn now. welcome. your national champions, blake corbin. jj mccarthy. treasure treasure your memories here. and don't ever forget the only

people who see magic are the ones who look for it. lala, theo, you know how much i love being your dad. class of 2024. show him what you got. make magic. go blue blue.

on we delve into the latest news about the publishing industry with interest in insider interviews with publishing industry experts. we'll also give you updates on current nonfiction authors and books. the latest book reviews and we'll talk about current nonfiction books featured on c-span book tv. and now joining us on booktv v is author jonah winner. he is a children's book author. he's written over 40 children and books. many award winning, mostly published random house topics include ruth bader ginsburg, roberta willie mays, sonia sotomayor. barack obama. muhammad ali. hillary clinton. thurgood marshall, etc., etc. what of children's books do you write? mr. winter well, i write on about a broad range of topics,

but generally what i have been writing about until few years ago, i should say i had been writing about were books about people who don't share my identity. so a lot of books on people of color and books on women books about racial and social justice. i write books about baseball players and artists and musicians. i write children's book, nonfiction picture picture book biographies, picture book nonfiction, specifically and recently the, last few years, i've been writing more fiction for reasons having to do with certain changes in publishing world and in my career. but that's generally the sort of books i've been writing. my first book was the ego about diego rivera, published in 1991 and and that kind of was before there was a category in bookstores, a section in bookstores called picture book biography. so i've been doing this for a while well and recently in the

dallas morning news wrote a column. and in that column you wrote, i am acquainted censorship from both political right and left. what were you referring to. well the to begin with the first part of your question the censorship from the political right is covered a lot in the news you see lots of news stories these days about right wing book banning, book banning and right wing school districts in florida. texas even the state where i live in pennsylvania. and so i am i am familiar with that. i've had i've had a few books banned my on roberto clemente was banned last year. that was the reason i was asked to write that piece for the dallas morning news. it was in duval county, florida, along with a lot of other books. and it became quite a national news story because a lot of people were surprised that a book on roberto clemente, of all people, would be banned.

but i also had a book on so to sotomayor, which is banned right here in the state where i live, pennsylvania, in york county. i was on a book tour for my book hillary about hillary clinton in 2016 and was met at the door of two schools there by the principal i spoke to. i was going to be have to go to the principal's office. it was a kind of a tense scene. and was told that i could not present my book hillary to the children in that school, even though those schools, even though i was on on a book tour for that book and they had known advance. so i would count that as in my experience of right wing book banning wing censorship. but the the what i have experienced, the left is is a lot more insidious. and i would argue a lot more damaging. and it isn't covered as much in the news, or at least not in mainstream news. it's certainly probably covered

a lot on fox news and news sources that from right wing places and it's generally referred to as cancel culture. and i have experienced that. i've had a book of piled on. in 2017 for the secret project. i wrote a piece about it in the new york times by left critics. i guess you could call that. well, it's more like a mob now who pounced on my book saying that it was erased native americans. it was book about the making of the atom bomb. i had not erased native americans from this book. but what started as a book that had gotten star reviews and was predicted for caldecott said quickly became a book that was like kryptonite and that no one, no one wanted to touch it and. it kind of got disappeared. i also had an avid contracts

canceled very much when they were canceled. they weren't they weren't news items. this wasn't that was written about in the news. it happened behind the scenes books that two contracts were canceled because my identity did not match the identity of the subject matter. one was a book on contract for, a book on ruth bader ginsburg that the publisher felt that because another book was coming out on this topic by, a jewish woman. my book could not compete with that. in the other instance, there was a book i had written about a white well, a slave owner. our known historic figure who who freed his enslaved and what amounts mattered to the largest emancipation in history. before that, the before the civil war and this book got canceled simply because the the editor became worried because of various things that were

happening. the children's book world became worried about the percent, what the perception would be about a white child, male children's book author writing about a white male slave owner published by a white male editor. and so canceled it well, the book got canceled by that publishing so i want to walk through i want to walk through some of these examples. mr. and let's start with roberto clemente in duval county. jackson ville, florida. when say that book was banned, who banned it and why? well, it was was banned. the school district and. and the answer why is sort of an interesting question. i think. now, look at it from the perspective of one year later, i think that the people who banned who who removed this and 273 other titles books from the shelves in the schools in that district i think they were doing

it as a form of creative protest to ron desantis new governor ron desantis, his new new law that sort of the the anti woke law that was put into place making it a crime to present books on certain topics that covered say sexuality, gender identification, racism and so they removed all of these books that for i think probably for the purpose of drawing attention to that at the time it seemed like they were doing this simply they were being good soldiers and just following law and and removing all the books that needed to be removed. but certainly their impetus for doing this was legitimate. i mean, desantis was making it crime and still is to present books on. the topics i mentioned to children in public schools. so that was the reason. and when you say banned, they were removed from the libraries correct. yeah, i mean that's it's an

interesting distinction when you hear this talked especially in right wing contexts there's always this distinction made between banning and removing book from the shelves. my my attitude is that if you remove book from the shelf from a bookshelf in a public school for ideological reasons, that amounts to banning a lot of people define the word banning in a more strict way to say banning can only be done by country. outlawing specific titles. but yes, that's what i'm referring to. so in duval county when this happened, this made the news correct that there was a lot of media about this. there was i mean, to the point where and when one pointed hakeem's praise the house minority leade was holding the book in house chambers, waving in the air as an example of of

how the overreach of of of the right wing and censoring censoring books for kids because of a book by roberto clemente could be banned and anything could be banned. so yeah it became a it became a pretty big news item. what happened to the sales of the book? well, for that period they went up i mean the you know, i went on to amazon to check the sales rank and it was it was as if the book was had just come out and were a bestseller. i, you know, and i was being contacted by various news people, various states and and various organizations where in talking to me and people were saying they were to buy hundreds of these books, distribute, distribute to schools. you know that that banned books. so it was it provided a lot of free publicity and and it did so almost 20 years after its publication date. i mean, it's stayed in print and

done really well. the years. it's a common core book and it's it's survived. but that was really a shot in the arm. joan, a winner, i want to go back to your dallas morning news and quote again, what hurts a book or an author is the far more effective culture of the left who've commandeered both liberalism in general and the publishing world, specifically, often using their power to attack well-meaning authors in the form of social media pile ons and the resulting cancel lations. could you explain how this impacted you personally? well, as mentioned earlier, you know, it impacted me with the book i wrote called the secret about the making of the atom bomb, that a book i an experience i wrote about in the new york times book review it as much the book had been getting rave and then suddenly it got

attacked by a very popular social media who had a lot of followers who kind of piled on and and joined in the in the condemnation of this book, if you want to call it that. and after that one, no one wanted to touch this book. it was you know, it had been predicted for a caldecott well wasn't going to get one anymore. the publisher really didn't wasn't interested in promoting it anymore at that point because it was it had been at the center of a social media firestorm. so you know, after i wrote a piece about this in the new york times two years later, i myself experienced the joys of more pylons. i was singled out on a website reading while wild white is a website run by left wing white people who like to attack and

pile on other left wing right people, white people such as myself and they me on a sort of blacklist after that in my new york times piece came out and accusing me and authors of race in words, works and deeds well. i mean, i've devoted my life to educating children about racism and to promoting racial justice through my book. so was you know, i was, i was pretty upset about this. but then, you know right around that same time, i was told by my main editor at random house that she could no publish any more books by me on, people of color, women. and of course not, on white men, because no one wants any books about white men anymore. that was the implication there. and she said, i get it, jonah, you're totally. and then she used the i can't use on tv, but those are some of the examples ways i've been impacted by this and contracts

canceled also you know because because identity did not align with the subject matter and you talk in your column about two terms lived experience ences and own voices. what does that mean? well, own voices, the original term that came along in 2015 to promote the idea that people, writers should stay in their lane, they should not write outside their own experiences, and specifically writers from, quote unquote, empowered culture, whatever that culture might be, should not write about people from the marginalized culture. and so this this this became, this own voice. it became a very popular term. and in fact, it was used in some rejection letters i got for a manuscript wrote about colin kaepernick and one of the editors said, i have a hashtag own voices problem with this

manuscript, meaning i'm not allowed to write about this. and in fact, another editor just came out and said, no, this, this subject matter does not belong to you. you don't get to write about that. so that's what own voices mean, that the reason i'm not quite sure why that term was abandoned, but various people who were promoting the term said it was being weaponized against the people it was supposed to help. so they it was not a useful term anymore. and it got replaced by lived experience, which i have to say i don't think just just linguistically, i don't that's an improvement because the term lived experience implies that you have to, as an author, have lived the experience you're writing about in order to have the right to write about that, which means that nobody gets to write about anything except for themselves except memoir. i mean, if you're going to follow logic of that term to its illogic code conclusion, you would have to say that a

contemporary black would not be allowed to write about slavery because they didn't live that experience. so that that those those are those are those two terms. and the one lived experiences that went far more favor right now. where do you think the lived own voices movement came from? well, it came from an idea that well i would say it came from a sort of pseudo marxist idea about subject matter belonging to certain people and and literature being a power struggle in which certain subject matter like cultural subject matter, has been appropriated by those people in power. so the idea was that these these new rules and by the way they are rules that are generally in place in the publishing industry right now, the publishers have been pressured into putting them into place.

but these new rules were supposed to correct that injustice by by deciding who gets to about what. so that's why they were that's why they were created. i mean, i must add to that though that creating rules about what authors can and can't write about creates a kind of totalitarian of things because. when you start doing that, when you start limiting authors can write about you're you're you're basically veering towards the stalinist soviet union where where only certain can get talked about and who break the rules get sent away. jonah winter do you consider to be politically liberal? extremely. i am. i have been i am a lifelong. i've been a liberal. my whole life. and i i as much i don't find these these new developments at all liberal. i would call them illiberal. and but but yes, i mean, i you know, in first grade, i got in

trouble in my school, which was in a right wing school district for wearing a piece button on my lapel. i been going to demonstrate and since i was since i was in high school anti-war protests, i am always voted democrat. i have devoted i would say my career is a children's book author to to the liberal cause of getting across information about people of color about justice, about women, people from all over the world that might be excluded from the curriculums in the schools across this country. yes, i am a i am an unabashed liberal. where did you grow up? well, i grew up in dallas, which is what a big part of what turned me into a liberal, because, you know, i was i was you know, i was born born in 1962. i was on my father's shoulders when the day kennedy came to dallas and was assassin hated.

so i grew up in the shadow that and in the era the john birch society, it was dallas, which has become apparently quite a left leaning city at this point. it was not that when i was up there and the particular where i grew up was just as racist and right wing as it could be and intolerant of any kind of nonconformity which made my life kind of kind challenging at times, growing up there. but it also helped shape i am i mean, i, you know, i'm a liberal and i'm a nonconformist and that shaped a lot of a lot of what i've devoted life to and who i am as a person. so how did you become a children's author? was it total accident? actually, i gone to graduate school study poetry. i write poetry for adults when i'm not writing children's books and my mother is a children's book illustrator and author and

she has been this children's book illustrator since i since i was six years old. so i knew about this business. i had actually my first job out of college was in the publishing world, you know, working as a children's book, editorial assistant and assistant editor. but what got me into writing children's books is a poetry reading i gave in which i was presenting these kind of i write a lot of kind of silly poems for adults. and one of them was a series of book reports from the point of view of a misinformed, illiterate ten year old boy. and one of the book reports that i that i read was on diego rivera, which my mother was trying to write a book about at the time, and struggling because she written books at that point. and this was 1989, 1990. so she asked me to write the text for this and did, and it got published and it did really well. it's still in print and.

and so it was kind of an accident really. okay. well, i want to talk a little bit about social media and its impact. you wrote a column in the wall street journal regarding experiences as well, and want to quote from that. what mattered was that a social media mob could force major publishers to stop distributing a book. my career will likely suffer damage because of what i've written here, so be it. the impact of social media. mr. winner. well, i would argue that it's been horrible and it has been it has led to various kinds of censorship, self-censorship, authors and editors now live in fear of being on social media. they live in fear of the social media mob. and at this point, i would say most the lessons taught to us by the social media mob have been

absorbed so that now the publishers have these rules in place like lived experience for instance and authors are self-censoring. i mean, there's also been examples of self cancellation to social media pressure. but, but i think the even more dangerous effect the symptom of of social media involvement in the children's book world is the self censorship the the notion that you always have of this this censor on your shoulder looking every word that you're typing and oh, am i allowed to say that? could i say, no, i'm not allowed to say that. and. you know, that is not a way that good literature happens and that that that is that for literature to happen, for any literature to happen, authors have to be free to, say whatever they want to say without fear of reprisal, without fear, of.

career ruination, without fear of getting attacked and becoming so unpopular that no publishers want to touch them. that and that's what to happen. social media. i think is the people are using social media for this purpose is responsible for so much of what has happened in the children's book world. i mean, there are a lot of people who believe that what's happened in the book world is wonderful i'm not one of these people. obviously. have you found yourself self-censoring? oh, sure. absolutely not in the essays that i write mean, i pretty much decided that in the essays i write, i'm just to say exactly what i think and hope that someone publishes them. but in my children's book manuscript, i mean, i look to like i often keep index cards full of ideas for children's books and i go through that list to think, now how do that get? no, no one's going to publish that. no, too dark. no no. you know, to get i'm not allowed

to say that problematic so absolutely i mean i have you know i've tried to come up with manuscripts that i think could possibly that i would be allowed publish. but but but then sometimes i don't even send those out because i don't see. the point is. it's is it safer as a children's to write about animals? yes. in fact, one of my one, my former main editor, that's what she highly wrote, the one who told me she was couldn't publisher books by people of color of women or white men. so you should really think about writing about animals and specifically she said she suggested the follow topic the last white rhinoceros, which she suggested without a trace of irony. and i burst out laughing, which they suggested this, but it wasn't a joke. i mean, to me it sounds like i really like almost satirical name for a really sad memoir,

but the last white rhinoceros jonah tells his story. but yeah, i. i've been told that i should write about animals and in fact i have started writing about animals. i have a coming out about birds this next month called bird or soul, which i, i think i have a copy of right. and an and this this is a manuscript i wrote kind of in response all of this. i mean, i thought, well, if i can't write about people i love birds, i'm going to write about, and i so i sent manuscript out to a couple of my former agent, sent this out to a couple of editors who didn't quite it enough to publish it. and then she kind of got cold feet about sending it out anymore. and she showed it to her assistant who looked at this manuscript that is just birds to see, you know, what might be wrong with it. it hasn't gotten published yet. and he he you know, it's just about birds and bird songs.

but he was looking through it and saying and i saw his thoughts this he said, you know, i kept thinking that maybe the diversity equity and inclusion theme would arise in this book about birds and and then there was a bird on a telephone wire. and i and i thought, oh, maybe there's going to be environmentalist theme that's going to hold this together. no, it's just about birds. well, long story short, i insisted that we keep sending this manuscript out, and an editor did publish. but one of the first things she did before publishing it was suggest that i take out all the text, all my writing, except for the bird songs, which i did. now, the only text in this book is like the chicken lady in car. and and you know what? i think that was the most brilliant suggestion that could have been made in regard to this book. i'm very happy that this was published. the illustrations are beautiful it was illustrated by my and former collaborator stacey

interstate and he and i collaborated on the ruth bader ginsburg book, which finally did get published by abrams who also came out with this book. and i couldn't be happier. maybe i'll just be publishing books about, i don't know, i again like birds. well, jonah, when are you you also talk about the industry, the publishing industry and the heresy press newsletter you wrote. fear has prompted publishers to avoid taking chances on any potential controversial books. this is a major departure since books were first published, publishers took chances on books that might offend certain people and often these books have helped move forward. yes, well, that's that is that is that is the history of literature right there. i mean, ulysses, what if a publisher would have said, well, i don't know there's no book like this out really.

you know, where's the precedent for this? and this is going to offend. so i don't know. i mean, that the right to offend is a fundamental right a it's a foundation for freedom of speech. and it's the foundation for a lot of literature. i mean, books in most books are going to offend someone. i think especially in this day and age, this is the age of getting offended by things. and the idea of not publishing a book because it might offend someone is, is enormous. it's a well, it's a sea change in how books published a word winning children's author jonah winter author of over 40 children's books. we appreciate your time on book tv. thank you very much.