ask questions. ask questions. this sounds bad and it's not maybe kind of conservative, but i think it's justified in this case embarrass your teacher front of others. make sure he doesn't do that again. i really believe that. and and and then take the they take the hits. i a lot of people say, oh, well, i should just shut up and write the paper in college that the teacher wants to get an a. i'm much more impressed with the kid that eats the c and doesn't compromise this. yeah so thank you sir that was an excellent question. we are just about out of time, but the conversation will continue with chris rufo is including his next book and in the pages of modern age in modern age journal dot com and. thank you all for coming tonight i want to thank athos pr for sponsoring tonight's event and also the henry and balaji foundation for all of their

sponsorship and support for the conservative book of the year award. thank you chris. thank you. we thank you all coming to bed. there's not a lot of in this book i must love you because i've been up to since two in the morning. i'll be getting up at two tomorrow morning. so those of you so how many, if any, you had a chance to read the book yet you're going great. okay, okay, great. okay. just we are going to have time for questions so that i don't want to make a fitness contest. so there is a mic there. but if you have trouble getting to the mic, i'll come to you. so just, you know, we'll we'll

jump into your questions, the conversations talk up here for a bit and then we'll come to because obviously you all got a lot on your minds. so, so this book was so fascinating to me. i'm so glad you wrote it because was it's hard for a journalist. i mean, as a journalist, you're kind of trained to. keep your business out of it. i mean, i know that that's, you know, some people are different, but the way were trained, we have been trained is to keep your story out of it. so was it that made you want to both combine your reportage with your own personal that was such a hard decision, but fundamentally i felt like i had a unique perspective and i had something i really wanted to say and but i thought hard about that you're right. you know, old school journalism, you keep yourself out of it. you stay out of it. and the truth is, i had spent so many years outside the evangelical, i'd had my own really complicated and sometimes painful process of disentangling a lot of things from my childhood, trying to make sense of them, trying to figure out who i was and wanted to be in

this world. and then i got assigned to cover the 2016 campaign and suddenly white evangelicals, the world that i grown up in were right at the center of so many stories and and so many other journalists were were asking the question in writing the stories about was the evangelical movement, which so central to the republican party base going to do about donald trump? and, you know, forward i got done doing that, spent a few years thinking about it. lots people said you should write a book. and i said, no, i don't want to do a memoir. no, i don't want to do a campaign book. and but i kept sort of seeing these evangelical spaces online where. people who grew up like me were trying make sense of this moment and lots of other things connected with that background. and i became fascinated with it. and, you know, as a reporter when you see something happening, you see a story, want to tell it, especially something like that that. i knew so much about personally. and i decided, you know, for this, as i say in the book, i couldn't stand on the sidelines. i wanted to be very transparent about my own experiences, but talk about those in conversation with those of of so many other

people. so, so, you know, i'm not making about anybody, but we live in a world in which i can't wait. i i'm just going to say that a lot of people are disconnected from religion and don't really it isn't part of their life experience. so for people for whom that is true. how would you describe what does it mean to be evangelical so before we i don't know what it is to be evangelical before we talk about what it means to be expand jellicle, i should start by saying that it means a lot of different things for different people. and that's one of the things i wanted to convey in this, is that a lot of people have a complicated with it. i think with any faith background that can be true. but this is the one i'm part of and it happens to be a influential one or one that i grew up with. you know, i think for me, growing up, the good things were it community, it was meaning, it

was sort of a guide for life how you're supposed to live, you know. we spent a lot of time talking about who we were supposed to be in this world, what god wanted, what was true, what was right and. i think those are questions that most of us ask ourselves sometimes right in the middle of the night, like, why am i here? am i supposed to be doing while i'm here? and evangelicalism offered some very clear and certain answers for that and i think that's what i found comforting for a time, until those didn't didn't feel they really fully added up for me. well but talk can i just ask if feel comfortable sharing and if you don't you don't have but are there those among us who have experienced themselves with the evangelical movement? do you consider yourself to be you've grown up in it. you know what it is? it's it's been a part of your life. you have a personal experience with it. okay. just just just wanted to know, are there those among us if you feel comfortable saying who really are like, what the heck? like, what does this even mean? it's jerry falwell. like, that's don't scary.

don't like it. i don't like it. okay. just wanted to sort of see where we are just so we can figure out, like, how to talk, right? so theologically, are there certain prisons or one of the points that you make in the book is that, you know, this isn't necessarily theological movement anymore. it's not about faith commitments. it's become something else. but for the sake of arguing it, what was the evangelical movement that you think your parents what were the commitments that they adhering to? yeah, and it's a really category. and as you know, a journalist, one that people argue about all time. but but fundamentally, you know, historians have sort of outlined think basically for and i'll see if i can remember them. but four fundamental pieces of evangelical one is a belief in jesus christ salvation through jesus christ. another is a commitment the bible. and that usually involves a literal and erroneous view of the bible. it was it's inspired by god, and it's without error. and it's the ultimate guide for life. the next one is some sense of evangel ism, an obligation to that faith and share with others

the good news. it's good news. why would you keep it to yourself and then the fourth pieces has something to with activism engagement with the world. and that can mean that can mean social action but but for increasingly during my certainly it has meant political engagement and usually for a specific but it didn't always mean that. did it start to mean that you because because there was a time in which evangelicals issued a lot worldly engagement. they were like, no, that's not we don't we don't want do our thing and stay out of that evangelicalism. you know, obviously it's a movement that came out of protestantism. yes. there was a time when it was very. and historians, which i'm not, but i, i cite them in my book, would would say, yes, there was a time that evangelicals kind of kept their distance from politics. i think the best histories i've read of it sort of pegged the timing to around the time integration in public schools. that seemed to be a big driver, the christian school movement and for and i think also as the

country became more diverse and also separately less religious over time, we've seen a decline in white christian power fundamentally and so, you know, historians like randall balmer and, kristin cobb as jim and a lot of others traced the rise of the evangelical political to those trends, a more diverse country and, also a less christian country. i want to be clear, those are separate trends. a lot of a lot of people of color are and often christian. well, you know that is interesting and i do want to say that one of the things i appreciate about your book is that you name the whiteness, because it's one of the things that's kind of i'll just be honest, frustrating to me a journalist is that everybody is allowed be black or latino or asian or egypt. nobody seems to want to be white. and, you know, i mean, it's like it's almost like it's the unnamed like well, but if you're not but why are you like the creamy peanut butter and everybody else is crunchy? like, what's that thought. so that doesn't.

yeah but you kind of name whiteness as a big part of this movement you are explicit in that and i'm just as briefly as you can because i know it is it's a deep stem. why is that so important? well, fundamentally because even though christians of color i'll say black christian specifically because there's i think been more work done comparing, the two movements, black christians and white christians hold the same theological beliefs are similar, but they both are very differently. and i think that reflects a different lived experience, different priorities, different values based on different lived experience. so, you know, two people can both be christians, but that means very different things to different people. oh, that's facts 100%. i remember ask and i don't want to call him out right here, but you can figure it out. i know. i ask. there's a prominent white evangelical leader once and i put question to him. i said, gee, why do you think it is that you can have folks who have such similar theological commitments, but such different political behavior. why do you think that is? and he's like, he basically his

answer is because people get more money from the government. i'm like. i that question one said a trump rally of a and what would they say trump supporter he said that black people had been misled by the oh, you didn't say the devil you can you could turn it around and, ask why? well, you know, you can ask the question in reverse but but yeah it's an interesting question to ask. yeah. so, so here's one of the things i like about the book too, is that you don't it's not just it's not just like a political project. i mean, although that is worthy you talk about like the personal side what as a lived experience so do you want to talk a little bit about that like in fact there's a reading we were talking about that i wanted to ask if you'd start with and it starts with people need the lord. yeah all right and thanks for the musical accompaniment wherever that's coming from. some of you on the tracks. well, no, the song that i'm not going to sing it, but the chapter is called people need the lord and i'm just going read a short section.

dear lord, i prayed thank you for this food and this day and i pray that grandpa will get saved in jesus name. amen. every night the six of us, my parents two sisters, my brother and me gathered around our antique wooden kitchen table and someone prayed a version that prayer for my grandfather. i didn't know much about him. only his house was filled with interesting objects, artwork and books that. he played classical music on the grand piano in living room that the kitchen smelled of garlic and sherry from his beloved cooking, and that he always had least one cat lurking around the house. i knew that he was, a brain surgeon, and i understood that was something we were proud of. but i couldn't understand why he didn't love jesus. the man with the gentle face surrounded by the herd of fluffy sheep in the tiny framed on my bedroom shelf. what i did know was that grandpa and my aunts and uncles were going to hell.

like everyone who didn't believe in jesus, their souls were in great danger. we had to pray for them, parents told us. and whenever we saw we had to be a witness, be friendly, respectful, well-behaved, so as to show the light of jesus. being evangelical meant evangelize, sharing the news of jesus with everyone we could before it was too late. and this was especially urgent for the people we loved most. our family. if they could see jesus shining through, they might be drawn to him and understood that they were lost in the darkness. and that if they would simply believe and, pray to receive him in their hearts, they become better people here on earth. and then when they died, go to heaven with us, though we an eternity of separation from our family members who would be in hell while. we were in heaven. my parents seemed cautious about spending time with them. we were together here on earth. my grandpa only a few miles away, but we see him much mostly at holidays, major family

gatherings, no sleepovers, no group vacations, no hanging out at grandpa's house. we probably spent more time there for the few years of life when my grandmother called, mima was alive. but that's only a fuzzy memory of a memory. she was gone not long after, my third birthday, so on the occasions we visited grandpa's house, i was on my best behavior. the stakes could not have been higher my childishness obedience, even my failure to the joy of jesus that should clearly radiating from my heart could cost my relatives their very carrying that heavy truth. i put on a smile. oh, that's a lot to carry for. like my personal story about this is the skate park. when you went to skate and you, there was a girl who you met who you thought, well, i should try to convert her. and you were like, you know, but how do i do it? and you're like, it felt a little much for skate land. and she was like, do you go to

church? she goes, sometimes my dad's here. and she was like, oh, man, you know, i missed it. i blew it like this little window. because, you know, i talk in the book about not all evangelical kids are quite as surrounded by evangelical subculture as i was, but a lot are, you know, the christian school and homeschool movements were huge when i was growing up in the eighties and nineties. so everybody i knew was an evangelical. i mean, my grandpa was in a few other family members were really. the only people i knew who weren't not just not christians, but not and so this this girl, this it was a remedial skating, i need to say, because that's cool. i am. but yeah, i'd known her for a few weeks and i just, you know, she was like one of these few people that maybe i could save. i just felt such responsibility. but the piece that comes through here that funny is that the fear like that you're, living with this heaviness of fear, fear of messing up, fear of sinning, fear of disappointing friends. could you just talk a little bit? why is fear so much a part of

the. i think it's because i think that, you know, i think for many people, it's it's not and maybe maybe you find faith as an adult and have a more sort of complex view of the world. maybe it just hits. but when you're a little kid and everybody around you literally believes in all of and it's all you know, it's terrifying. i mean, terrifying to think that so much is stake. so much is on your shoulders. and i realize that everyone doesn't experience religion this way. and religion doesn't isn't always expressed this way. but for myself and so many other evangelicals i have met the real world and online it was a huge theme and it was it was around meeting to save people. it was also around just, you know, how you conduct yourself, a fear of going outside the lines, which had been so clearly drawn. do feel that that's a particular fear more? is it gendered in part that, boys have the same fear as girls because a lot is placed on girls and purity and modesty and, you know, being told what to do, you

know you know you know i would say the men i talk to you for this book, especially the men who were who were gay felt that as but i do think that there's another layer and another dimension in in many religious for women and certainly for and within evangelicalism i mean there is expectation of modesty. i would be, i think, very appropriately dressed because it's a little long skirt. so but but that's just coincidental. yeah. you know, at my christian school, we had to wear long dresses and the girls were told it's your job to you know, to keep to keep your brother's eyes is one of the lines we would hear you know, your brothers meaning your brothers in the men. but, you know, i don't want to i didn't want to diminish pressure that was on men as well. it was just a different kind of pressure. so when did the next for you? i mean, you've made it clear that this was for some people. and i think this is very this is something that i learned from the book too, is just what a polarizing event and what a

crisis the trump campaign was is for people who identify as evangelical, i mean, and because, you know, i'm thinking of people people who are prominent, i'm thinking about russell more for who was the head of a very important division of the southern baptist convention. you know the ethics and public policy division which is like the outward facing lobbyist group for whom the trump campaign was a real crisis and it actually led to him leaving that movement and he's written about it so i'm not telling his private business and but but what found fascinating about your book is how what a crisis this was for people who aren't who aren't outward facing people just their lives trying to figure out how to be in the world. but it started before that for. you so what was the x? where was the x starting for you? and i think this moment, the trump moment, which put evangelicalism so the spotlight in so many ways was for a lot of people, a turning point a deciding point. and the people i write about in

the book, some of them that was it. it was last straw. others it was other other things that had happened along the way or this moment was when suddenly, you know, not only is is is trump sort the champion of the christian right, but, you know, we're living in a time where there are so many different social media spaces where, you can talk about anything. so there was a place now for people to go and talk about this and they definite lee did for me when i started sort of these conversations happening i recognize them from from long ago in my own life as you say i you know i can't pinpoint point when i started sort of deconstructing my faith to use another kind of internet buzzword that has come along in the last few years in a big and it was not a word i had at the time you know i stopped going to evangelical churches a year or two after i graduated from an evangelical college. so in my early mid twenties, that was that was after many of struggle, you know, many conversations with, have to say,

christian college professors and some of my even high school teachers who did hold space for me to, you know, ask questions about evolution and about inclusion of people of other faiths, you know, about all of these things that have plagued me. and i kind of organize the book around these themes because they're also themes i saw coming up again. and again, in these in these online spaces where i found a lot of people would talk like, for example, you were a page, you were page when you were in high school. and that kind of opened the door to some questions that you were not expected like for. exactly. they were you like, because i didn't realize this this is actually relieving to know that the senate pages actually do go to school. you sound like really early in the morning you would you could sympathize. well i do sympathize although slackers they get there at 530 but how they taught like you know evolution was talked about as if like no big deal. right and were just shocked by

this. you're like, wait, what? like, i remember just looking at my teacher and thinking because this was the second semester of my junior year of high school. so was right during. the whole clinton lewinsky scandal and all that. and i remember looking at my as he's like talking about, you know, millions of years and just thinking like i this is embarrassing. but there was a part of me that was like, wow, a sinful man, you know? yeah, yeah. because everybody i knew. did you try to save him? no. no. i could also tell he way smarter than me and i mean, like, these were smart people, but it was a shock to you that that was not considered controversial like like, yeah, these are facts. and you're like, wait, yeah. it was like just how casual was and and i'd kind of picked up on that, you know, going every now and then at the science, you know, you see references to geology or the library. you know, my mom took us to the library all the time as a kid. so i saw, you know, i had a that there was another idea out there and i knew it was pervasive, but i don't think i realized just quite how uncontested was. and and it was a little bit and

i think it was, you know, it was there were many experiences during that semester because that was really the first time that i had significa time outside of the evangelical bubble and was, you know, going to school with kids of all different faiths mormon kids, muslim kid, you know episcopalian kids, catholic, you know, we were all from all over the country and you know, i didn't totally fit in. i felt like a fish of water. and and i just realized how completely different the world i was living in kind of was. but i didn't know what to do with it yet. you write very movingly this one of the other pages who was muslim, who was very kind and, just and you knew that you were like the square and and he was nice to you in a way that some of the other kids, frankly, were not. could you just talk a little bit about that? yeah, my friend zena, he was yeah, he was such a sweetheart. i checked in with him recently to make sure was okay with me writing about him and he, you know, he was just, you know, a popular kid, but also really

nice. doesn't always align, you know. and we were we had these long days sitting on the senate rostrum, you know, the steps. i don't have to explain the rostrum probably here in d.c. and other audiences i will. but the steps leading up to the senate would sit there, you know, and wait for the senators need something watered easel, whatever the case may be. and we would just talk and one day senate and i somehow got into a about our religious background our faith and and he me his story about his parents. you know coming from iran and and resettling and everything that their family had gone through. and it was such a different experience from my own. and i was so impressed and and then he asked me like point blank, do you think i'm going to hell? because i'm a muslim? and i just, i, i, i was supposed to think that he was, but i couldn't i couldn't say yes. i didn't that in my heart. and i had kind of i think i had struggled with that idea for a long time. but then having somebody just asking me look look me in the eyes, somebody i cared about it. it's, you know, kind of threw

into stark relief what i really, you know, trying hard to believe. and it was kind like why, you know, did you tell your parents when you stopped going to you know, and i didn't totally stop going to church for a really long time. i just explored traditions. you know, i started going i actually got married the first time in in the episcopal church. i chose that it was inclusive of gay people, was important to me. and i was, you know, i was only 22, but i was i, i sense that i needed move into a space that was a little more progressive and would have a little more space for, for thinking things like that. i think i was still thinking it through a little bit, to be honest at that stage. but, but i chose that in my, my spouse and i chose that intentionally. and then, you know, tried out different churches for a couple of years. and and then honestly gradually went to church less and less as i older partly for a whole host of reasons but i think

fundamentally i less connected to it but i've never felt totally disconnected from it. you know it's it's still a part of who i am. yeah. and i do want to come back to that because. i know that, you know, we're having fun, you know, talking like backsliding and all the other stuff and lock ins and all the other stuff. those of, you know, how crazy is that like lock in a whole bunch of hormonal preteens and overnight so that they can get closer to god? great idea. but. and just wake up, destroy. the next day. just destroy. even when you haven't slept at all. yeah. sleep hard, whatever anyway. but there is something profound and comforting that i do want to ask you about later, but i want to fast forward and, ask you to sort of bring in the political science in your reporting now and why does this matter? why is this movement so? and particularly in the current moment, because i think think fundamentally right now it's a critique of a very powerful movement. it's people from, the inside saying we know what this is like

from the inside out. and we've seen some things and, you know, you might want to be careful about this christian nationalism idea that seems to be gaining ground. i think it's also part of a bigger trend that's, even more significant, which is the the the overall decline in white not just evangelicalism but evangelical ism. as uniquely as i as i've said, uniquely powerful has outsized influence in american politics. and, you know, the country as a whole is becoming less religious. we're about, i think, the latest data from the pew center, which we covered at npr says something like a third of the country is a religious non now you any more like you know any not not not enough but but more people say they are nothing at all religiously than than say they are white evangelicals, which is a big shift. and, you know, i think shift depending on your perspective, there are probably good and bad things about that. and i'm very curious about where it leads. you know, i think one thing we know is that that nones more

progressive than than the people who are on the whole, but they're not politically engaged. and so i think that that raises a big question mark for me. and, you know, as journalists, we don't make a lot of predictions. say more about that, say more about what we do know, journalists, about what role that people who identify as white evangelicals, who wouldn't as they wouldn't necessarily call themselves, they just say we're christians right. i mean, this is one of the things many times i mean, there are just certain words that journalists use that sort of annoy me, like gun culture. i don't know, with a gun who says i belong to gun culture? no i have a gun like i'm a gun, right i'm or i'm a second amendment guy. right? that's what people say, well, same with, you know, but but just our purposes, it's a common language that we can use to describe what we're talking about here. can you just talk about how it is white evangelicals and their role particularly in our in our modern politics. well i think they make up something like a third of the republican base. they eight in ten of them voted

for donald trump in both 2016 and 2020. and, you know, there was lot of hand-wringing during that time about about what evangelicals would do. would they support someone like trump given his and his rhetoric and so forth? and and we saw that large numbers. they did. and i think it was so interesting this year in 2024, you know, i covered several of the primaries looking at the exit polling once again evangelicals were, you know, a key key part of making trump the presumptive nominee again. so even when given many other options aligned with their political views, they still chose trump. and i think you know there are a number of reasons for that. one of them is that he did deliver on many of their policy goals as president and that from, you know, the first the first term. but know evangelicals have have long had a big role in the republican party. and that's not accident. that's the result of mobilization goes back decades to groups like the moral majority. the other interesting thing about that i think that's

happening and this is based on research. sociologists like samuel perry at the university of oklahoma is that it seems that the evangelical label the meaning of is shifting going back to something you said earlier that people identify with the place the republican is going are perhaps even likely now to identify as evangelical as well. there are some pew data from a few years that suggests some people who were sort of culturally christian and support trump were likely to newly call themselves that even if they hadn't before. and likewise it appears that people who don't identify with that are less likely to use the label evangelical. so going back 2016, you covered the trump campaign. and so this is where i want to ask you to about when some of the experiences that you had, what are reasons i want to ask you to read that? is that. a lot of the people who are here in this room, you follow politics. so this will not be news to you. but one of the things that was fascinate to me on campaign

trail is how many people no clue about this claim never to have seen it or heard it just don't like what are you even talking about? i'm going to ask you if you would read that section that we talked about where you were on the campaign. yeah, i should have been turning to it while you were saying to read from it rather than just looking at you. this is from page eight, from the introduction john. yeah, i got it. i got it. yeah. by the end of 2016, i had become accustomed to being yelled at by angry crowds of people assigned to cover the donald trump campaign. a correspondent for npr, it felt almost routine to those of us in the press to huddle, huddle over our laptops rushing to meet deadlines while people passed by to shout insults at us. when i should say that just before this, i'm a story about an easter pageant in which jesus is being yelled at a crowd of people. so however large our egos may be in the national media, i don't

intend to compare myself to jesus, but there were frightening moments in those angry crowds. it also wasn't unusual to engage, in warm, friendly conversations with rally goers, often as they were arriving and elton john's tiny dancer blared over the they might have made a joke about the liberal media at my expense, but many were equally happy to talk and tell me why they felt so seen and inspired by this real developer from new york city. and then the music amped up. trump took the stage and the atmosphere would shift the crowd took on its own energy. as trump pointed the risers and cameras at the back the room complaining about those disgusting reporters who were the worst people this quickly became part of his schtick, a highlight of every rally trump would whip up the audience into an excited frenzy as they turned to point at us and laugh. in my reporting for npr, often describe this moment as very much a rock concert in which trump's on the press function

like of his greatest hits that the audience demand to hear before they could leave satisfied. you could feel that catharsis in the air as these crowds poured out their frustrations with the economy with immigrants, with the washington establishment that they felt disdain them and directed them at us men in red maga hat shook their fists and to stare us down. i'll always remember one grandmotherly grandmother looking woman in colorado who in toward the reporter's pen pointing, shouting, you're disgusting. did any of you experience that? i mean, i know there are some journalists here, and it's. i mean, i'm just going to say it's terrifying. i know that being a journalist, a lot of times know you think you're bulletproof and ten feet tall. but we are not. and terrifying. it is terrifying. you know, and i always say it's fair game to criticize the press every pretty much, every politician of both parties does. it trump did it in a different way, in a way that was more targeted, more vitriolic and as

i said, it was something that his audiences seemed to crave in a in a way that felt a little a lot different, frankly. and there was the t-shirt, rope tree journalist some assembly required. yeah. you all seen that? now, that was nice. now, i was at a rally and i think it's in the book in wisconsin right before the 2016 campaign. and a rally that i was at which i didn't see the t-shirt when i was there, i saw the coverage of it later, and i was on a plane with a guy with a gun, and i was thinking to myself, should i say something? i'm thinking, you know, i'm thinking, okay, if he had, you know, something that identified as part of a different group and it was like pilot tree, would they let him on the plane but i'm thinking but is anyway. and it was i have to say it was such a shift. were you scared? i mean, i was scared. the crowds would get really angry. and they seemed to get angrier. closer. we got to the election. and, you know, there were some incidents of violence. there was one that was pretty high profile in chicago in 2016 at a trump rally. i wasn't at one, but, you know, you kind of never knew when the

temperature was going to shift and the movie was going to turn. and it was such a know it was really such a shock for me in many ways, as you kind of thought, some of these are my people. yes. and, you know, i had i had covered republican politicians for years. i had you know, i started in public radio in nebraska as one of my friends originally nebraska here. i think. and, you know, i would talk to everybody and, you know, farmers many of them who were conservative would listen to us in their tractors and and, you know, republican members of congress their staff would would turn to us and communicated. and it was okay. it wasn't it wasn't like this, you know. so it was a normal. so fast forward to and this is where we're going to start. think if you if you want to join our conversation, we would love it. and again, i don't want this to be a fitness contest, but there's a mike over here. and if it's hard for you to get to that one. i'll i'll sweep. i'll do a sweep and i'll come this side too. so you don't have to climb over if. but again, like where we're. i'm just going to name something

that i feel like is on a lot of people's minds. and i say this at respect is that a lot of people it just it drives people crazy is like how you call yourself a christian but yet call on, you know, to attack people you don't agree with people up, validate disgusting behavior. and it just it just and i'm not asking you as a spokesperson for the people but it is a lot of people's minds especially you people who are from a different political persuasion who are faithful to their spouses, who do not encourage to beat people up or attack people or vilify them or demean them because they are a different group. and it just fair. i am. i am. i am speaking what a lot of people feel. so i guess if you don't mind, how do you understand that? yeah, which is why there's been this narrative think you know every i have a google alert for evangelicals and usually it's some story about how evangelical are finally going to break with trump and you know i mean the story has been written so many

times there's been so much speculation yet it persists. i no, you know a number of reasons. i mean, one, you have to understand sort the political and priorities of many conservatives. if you believe that abortion is literally tantamount murder. banning it is a top priority, maybe more than being nice. secondly, when it comes to why why this group tolerates someone like you know i think that answer i've heard a lot is that he is something akin to we need a president, not a pastor. and you know, we heard high profile evangelical leaders say things to that effect. know. yeah, but they didn't say that about bill clinton. they not. i mean, last i checked, he wasn't preaching either. and i write about this. you know what it was like to be a 17 year old senate page when the scandal was was in the and it was an issue of great concern to my community, to my family. oh, that you would be okay, that you weren't be. not that i would be okay, but just that was happening. it was really troubling that you

were in a sinful environment. i heard a lot about how a president needed to have, you know, that and so to almost 20 years later see the way things i mean i it was it was a stark difference. i just saw some some data from pew the other day that that suggested that white evangelicals who support trump tiny percentage of them say that they think a religious person. and so i don't think that it fundamentally matters. i think that it's about an alignment of of a of an agenda. so let's go to your questions, sir. hello. two things real quick. go back to your point about that guilt we experience. i had a situation last week very to that. so it's not related. but i have prayed for a friend of ours who kind of fallen on hard. and i just thought that pray for an opportunity to share christianity with him and the very next day i walk into starbucks soon as i walked in, he looked at me, he and so i was looking for an opportunity to

share christ with him. and i got around to it. he talked about everything but that and it was an albatross of guilt. the next 20, 48 hours, it was tremendous. so kind of when you mentioned that comment earlier, i just personally went through that last weekend. but i want to get your view on and. because i've kind of backing away from white evangelicals, i even know if there's a black evangelical against i'm so i would say okay but when i found out dawn when barack obama was running for president. no none of them. and i'm almost talking hundred percent would not vote for him. and joe klein of the washington post wrote the article right when. i was thinking this, that this is more just politics. you a lot like racism. and i was really wrestling with that. and the second point i want you to comment on is the southern baptist doing the sexual

harassment. i heard that on npr sex abuse scandal. exactly. and want to get your views on how they handled because it really upset a lot of people on how they resolved it. and again how none of them was supportive. barack obama. but they can support donald. well, i think i would just say two things. first of all, i think your first point illustrates kind of why the word white is in the subtitle, which is, as we were discussing, people's experience deeply shapes, their political views, even if they may share a theology on paper as, far as as a southern baptist sex abuse scandal goes. you know, i haven't done a lot of reporting on that. i'm aware of that story. and i can say that that was a theme, one of many themes that came up in my reporting was just this idea that sometimes, sadly, churches are places where abuse. and it's not just evangelical churches, of course, but i think there's there's a whole chapter about trauma. and one of the things that

people have told me is that when a traumatic event happens like abuse in a religious environment. there's a special of trauma, or there can be, because this was not only a traumatic, but a place that was supposed to be a place of safety. well, it's like the family. i mean, we use that my church family. so it is in some ways like having your family violate you. it is deeply traumatic, sir. thank you. looking forward to the book to what extent do you think progress in the democratic party are responsible? the gop is kind of ownership almost of evangelicals. why aren't democrats and progressives highlighting the biblical message, which to me is way more in the favor of progressives, whether the environment, poverty, health, caring for your neighbor, receiving immigrants and so forth in a careful and kind. why do you think there's a void it seems among progressives to engage people of faith? it's a great question and there have been efforts, you know, former president obama had a

faith director. i don't know the exact title, but had at least one person assigned to this issue. and there are groups that have popped up over the years. there's, i think, of sojourners by jim wallis or vote come good are led by padgett moral mondays led by reverend barber and many others that have tried to address this and speak in the language of religion around around other issues. don't know that i have the answer, but i you make a good point that republicans and conservatives have been far more successful at mobilizing around religion, around their political beliefs. and it's a it seems to be a challenge for democrats for sure. thank you. so i'm a big npr fan. i was at least 2 hours a day. i heard you yesterday. the right that morning. yes. you listen the morning, actually, cnn amanpour at night.

there you are. people like your parents, first of all, are they are they still with us? yes. okay do they think trump is going to help and does it matter? i haven't asked. that's a good question. but again, i would go back to the pew data i cited a moment ago that suggests that most evangelicals who support trump don't see him as a deeply person. and i don't think he's really tried to present himself as a religious i mean, despite some of his gaffes around, you know, two corinthians, he's never really claimed to be like a deep believer, you know? but do they think he's going to help? i haven't asked them what you think. they think i think they'd probably say that they. don't know his heart, which is the answer we a lot it's interesting and what are your parents think about the book that's a longer conversation. okay thank you this is why you need the audience questions because i have to go back to work with her. and so i'm not. thank you. yeah, thank you.

how do you follow? i'll read sarah. long time. long time. my friend. point of personal privilege. i am so proud of you for getting this book out. thank you. i want c-span. hear that? and this is a question about journalism. you know, i'm curious, when you travel for the primaries and now for the longest general, i think all three of us will ever face when you're talking to voters especially e-mail coverage, mostly as you're covering abortion, i'm curious how much of your own background you share thinking that it might be a boon or if you leaving the faith, is used against you as a weapon of trust? i think i really struggle with sharing my own with voters when i talk to them because it can as easily be seen a coming to jesus as it is to you're going to hell get the experts out of my face and one bit of that is how do you feel responsible for coverage, right? because you're like, i live this, i know this, i f this up because if i f this up, the coverage is going to be bad

going down because i think a lot of us kind of carry that albatross with us where we're trying to get in front in front of political coverage. i love both those questions. thank you so much. you the first. well, i'll answer the second one first, i guess, about responsibility with that. i think it's like anything that's overwhelm me. like i try to focus on what's in front of me. so like, what's the story i'm doing today and how do i do it well and what's the context? and yes, because i grew up evangelical. sometimes i hope i think i have insight that someone who doesn't have that cultural reference frame might not have. and so i try to bring that to bear but i first of all, try to keep my journalist hat on and, you know, be fair and consider multiple perspectives and just be clear and and know i can't solve the bigger problem of how we cover this moment. but i think we have lots of conversations in our newsroom and i'm sure you do, too, about how to handle these of larger questions about threats to, democracy and so forth. but i think i just try to try to

do one story at a time as well as possible, simple as that might sound, as far as sharing my background like i have wrestled with this, i used to not talk about it at all, but generally my approach to journalism is to be pretty trans parent about just i mean i'm not i will never tell i will never tell anybody like who i'm voting for, what policy i support, you know, i don't think we should we should weigh in weighed into that if we're trying to be. but at the same time, when i'm sitting across from another human being and we're having a conversation even if it's an interview, i don't have a problem occasionally telling them things myself. i think that's how you build rapport. that's you have a human connection. and so when it's relevant, sometimes yes, like i think of one, one incident when i covering the trump campaign in 2016 and a man at a rally, i was interviewing, you know, just asking, i think, some questions about. trump and about i don't i don't think i knew that he was an evangelical yet, but i was sort of asking picture questions about about how saw trump's character and so forth.

and he said he said to me, i don't know what they teach you in your colleges. these days. and i said, actually, i went to an evangelical college. so i took a lot of bible classes, and he just kind of stopped you. he kind of laughed. but it was sort of like moments like that. sometimes it feels appropriate. other times it doesn't. you know, i'm going to speak this because please do you see, we we covered the tree of life shooting together. okay? and i feel like your your reporting is your. because i i'm this is such an emotional because the people were in such deep pain and your to absorb their pain and listen to them to me as your witness and i don't think you need to say one other thing that's what i think thank you. i agree. so, sir, how many more do we have in line here? okay, well, you're the last in line. yes. so in the gulf. okay, great.

so if there are any questions over here, do you did you get to mabry to walk the hall? no. anybody on this? okay. just making sure. okay. what do you think about idea that perhaps the mainstream media is using like they do many other things divide the public unnecessarily. for example evangelicals might be that much different from people of other or non-religious people. and as as get older they see the bible and things like that as metaphor. for example, like the next world representing the next of people, which is just a scientific concept. and so they keep the religion of their youth for the benefit of young children, perhaps and maybe addicts who can benefit by it. but, you know, they're not really that much different from other people. well, i think the first thing i would say that when we about the mainstream media, i think it's important to be as specific

possible because there are many many different organizations and entities within that term and we all sort of serve different purposes and so forth i think that, you know, the idea that the media tried to divide people, i think again, i think it depends on which media organization you're talking about. i think we really try not to do that at. npr but i think we just try to explain the world, you know, sort of describing is accurate. if it's unpleasant, even if it's unpleasant or uncomfortable to contemplate is not the same as being the agent of that. that's what i would say. i think we try to i think the behavior and the that is the behavior, the voting behavior, the attitudinal lineups are are there. i think that it's i just think things are sometimes a cigar really is a cigar. that's what i think very high. i'm really looking to the book as well. better context for my question. i grew up in the part north carolina that gave us great hits

like mark meadows and madison cawthorn. so while i was not an evangelical myself, i definitely grew up in a culture that was very deep in it. but in the decade so since i moved away, it has been interesting to see that the youth there have started to move more left, both socially and politically. and i was curious, based on your if you think that over time successive younger generations eventually kind of break the hold this southern evangelicalism has on these community is i mean the data i've seen that the younger people get more progressive. they are of course, there's that old cliche, right, that as you get older, you get more conservative. and i don't know how much that will track with the generation and gen z. well, you know, the expression is if you're a young person and not liberal, you have no heart. and if you're older, not a conservative, you have no brain. yes, that's the don't tell me that. that's the one. thank you. absolutely. yeah. and so i think it kind of

remains to be seen, you know, where younger generations will end up in 20 or 30 years. but i would also again point to the data about religious nones that, you know, the younger cohorts are less and less religious and it appears more more progressive. does that hold and to what extent? i don't know. but it's interesting that you're seeing it. thank you. so we have two more gentlemen and this person right here, and then we're going to give you 5 minutes to give us a closing thought. okay. hi. i heard you on a podcast a couple of days ago, and it was compelling to me and that's why i bought the book. but my question you is, when i think about your life experience, as i understand it so far, about halfway through the book and i think of other books that initially was drawn to like educated for example, and to our west over story, it me that the aperture widened and when the aperture widens because you moved to dc or because you're a center page or you take a certain job or you attend a different university different from your story. for example, anything's possible because once our aperture widens. we understand different experiences. what can we ask of our political leaders and our donors to widen more apertures in?

your view? wow. i usually don't give advice. political leaders or donors, but i you make a good point. i think and i'm probably not admittedly answering your question, but i think just the thing i would say. about that is that widening the aperture as as it may be, i hope one thing that comes through the book is that it's very hard it's difficult for the individuals. so think i can't really speak to politicians and donors but i think people in this room if you have people who have gone through this process who have who have made a change, whatever that is, particularly a religious change that might involve some loss, just know that it's hard and that people appreciate support. you know i am here because i have had from my husband who's on the front row here and many other people, my a lot of friends who are here. thank you so much, by the way, everybody, for being here so i know that does really answer your question, but i hope it maybe provides some. it's very high. hi, how are you? good. how are you? i'm congrats on the book.

thank you. i can't wait to. read it. i have it on hold. the library so i helps to. yeah i would love to know is there cause i'm sure that you talked to a lot of people that also identify as actually jellicle or leaving the same church that you grew up when in is there a story or a person that kind of sticks in your mind of like someone who's more informatica maybe how this transition away a faith of someone's childhood is actually very complicated. it's not a one day i believe it. one day i don't. for a lot of people think it's actually a much longer transition over time. absolutely. is there someone comes to mind for you? i mean, that was i think the experience of so many people? i don't think most people wake up one day and say, i just want to, you know, do something that's going to offend all the people i'm closest to. and i think my friend danielle from grade school in high school, who was kind enough to share his story with me about realizing he was gay, his

twenties and, you know, he told me this really heartbreaking that's in the book about, you know, some of the literature that was in his home growing up around gay people. there is a book called the unhappy and it was written by tim lahaye, who was of the left behind series, which some of you may have heard of. and, you know, leafing through that as a young boy who was slowly realizing who he was, was really painful. and he you know, he shares a story in the book about his kind of departure from the church. and i think that that echoes i mean, my own the details of my experience are different. but i think there's this perception sometimes people who remain in churches, people leave because they want to sin or they want to rebel or they're angry and they might be angry and they might do things that you think are sin, but it's not what the driving force. it's i mean, so many people i spoke to and i know it from the inside this kind of a shift is is really hard as i said before and and many do it after a lot of soul searching.

thank you for that question. yeah, absolutely so thanks for this. before we before we conclude our time together here, i'm going to loop back to where we started is that, you know, all of us, none of us is one thing you might be estranged from someone in your life, but that person still enriched your life in that person. you know, you might be estranged from a parent. that person might have harmed you greatly. but there was something that you got from that person that made you who you are. so i want to conclude asking you, even though you are an ex, is there something that you can point to in your evangelical experience that you cherish. has that that has made you who you that you can cherish, even now. so many things. i mean, i of alluded to it earlier but this idea that in my home and in my church and my school, we thought a lot about what was right, wrong what it was, as we would say, god called us to be and called us to do. and that that idea you don't have to believe in god to, i think, take seriously the idea of making the most the time that

we have on earth, trying to live well, trying to treat other people well, you know. and those ideas are present in a lot religious traditions and other traditions. but, you know, i got them from my christian tradition, my evangelical tradition. and i'm grateful for them. i also think it's probably part of why i became a journalist i lived in a space where we were thinking about ideas a lot. i may have come to different conclusions, but i was to think about things that matter. and i think that's what we try to do in our work. so with that being said, sarah mccammon, thank you so much for this book. thank you so much for coming. go forth, go forth and do good i just want to quickly say once again, thanks, everybody who came. i see a lot of familiar faces, but my editor phillips is here without her. this book have happened. so thank you, hannah. thank you to my husband greg