so now, without further ado, very excited to introduce and diane foley coauthor of american mother the story of diane's son jim foley, who was kidnaped, tortured and murdered in 2014 by the isis group known as the

beatles, an american mother, legendary author colum mccann, tells diane story as she recalls months of his captivity. the made to bring him home and the days following his death in which diane came face to face. one of the men responsible for son's kidnaping and torture a testament to power of radical empathy and moral courage. american mother takes us one woman's extraordinary journey to find connection in a world torn asunder and to fight for others as a way to keep son's memory alive. author patrick radden keefe calls the book an extraordinary story of grace, forgiveness and moral courage. colum mccann is the author of seven novels, three collections of stories, and two works of nonfiction. born and raised in dublin, she has been the recipient of many honors, including the u.s. national book award. his 2020 novel, a paragon one several international awards.

he is the president and co-founder of the nonprofit story exchange organization a narrative for and is the thomas hunter writer in residence at hunter college. he lives in new york with his wife and family. diane foley founded the james w legacy foundation to advocate for freedom for innocent americans held hostage or wrongfully detained abroad, and for journalists safety. foley has raised awareness about hostage taking through her government. the documentary the james foley story and opinion pieces in new york times, the washington post and usa today as well as appearances on the pbs newshour. she lives in new hampshire with her husband dr. john w foley and is mother of four other children. and the grandmother of seven. mccann and foley will be in conversation with margaret collins, the washington bureau chief and executive editor of. u.s. economy and government covered for bloomberg news.

previously, she oversaw the u.s. economy team through the pandemic and was team leader of invest in coverage in the u.s. prior to those roles. collins was a reporter covering. topics such as retirement savings, policy, wealth management and family offices. she's been with the company since 2009, before bloomberg. collins was multimedia editor for msn and reporter for the bergen county record newspaper in new jersey. collins holds a master's degree in journalism from northwest university and a bachelor's degree from the college of the holy cross. please welcome our authors and moderator. thank. well, thank you all for being here tonight. it's my honor to moderate this conversation about this stunning new i learned when i got from the publisher that the book actually launched in january in france. if i got that right diane and is

already a bestseller there in ireland where column is from which is a very exciting it's and it's just come out in the u.s. in march but diane not everyone was convinced that this was worth writing. so can you talk a little about the start of that and how the two of you first came together? sure. colm and i was strangers at an odd column, first heard of jim's story after. jim was murdered because someone sent him a picture of our reading the great world. and so that piqued and columns oh that piqued column's curiosity and so but i never he he generously reached out to us but i never received the so it was really just three years ago on a zoom regarding one of his other novels a paragon at

marquette university. yes. and i was to that and that's how i met colin. and then he came to visit and we became good friends and and he very generously offered to help write it. so the extraordinary thing is that um yeah i felt a kinship with jim now i feel that he sits on my shoulder as we travel around and talk this book but um, you know, when i went and talked with dan and and john up in their house in hampshire and dan said to me, well, we're going to go, i, to go, uh, meet my son's killer. and because of the plea agreement, uh, that had been negotiated. we'll talk a little bit more about this because we have a very important person in the, the audience here tonight.

uh, one of the, one of the archetype of one of the great acts of justice, uh, that we feel, uh, occurred, uh, mr. oak and dennis fitzpatrick, um, we, uh, decided to go down, uh, virginia, uh together to meet, uh, alexander cody and um, that moment i will just paint for you. just very briefly in broad brush we walked into a quite large, uh, room in the middle of a courthouse, a windowless room in the middle of a virginia courthouse. um, and dan walked, walked up to the table, sat not four feet from him. and the first words that came out of her mouth were, it is nice meet you, alexander and she had thought about like, how was she going to address all of these things and you imagine what that must have felt like in

that particular moment there were lots of other people in the room. there were prosecutors, there were defense. there were like, uh, courtyard court guards, there were, uh, fbi agents and dissolve of the way. and until you see this man and this woman talking then about faith, about conviction, about violence, about loss, about a whole plethora of human emotions, um, for the next two days and then eight months after that, sorry, eight months after that, um, we saw him once again and for me, um, as a writer, as a journalist, as a person who wants to live in the world, it was one of the most extraordinary human experiences that i've ever come across. i, i, i will embarrass here because i will say i met a person of extraordinary courage. um and that was one of the reasons that led me to, to, to want to, uh, this book and

articulate what went on because within those walls, then beyond those walls, uh, was one of the stories that i feel almost mythic to our times. and i'm deeply grateful to diane for, uh, for allowing me the space to get in there and to try to excavate some of the complications of this story. it's a lot is about a lot of things that you. diane, could you talk a little bit more there's column saying the book for those of you who haven't read it yet, opens up. essentially with the first chapter in that courtroom. and on that day that you first met, the man who a role in your son's murder. so what it like for you. i was nervous. i was grateful that colin was willing to come and grateful to the department of justice and attorney fitzpatrick for allowing it, allowing to be a family friend, for he was at that point.

but i had to pray lot about it because wanted to be able to see alexander as the flawed human being that we all are, you know and same age is one of my sons. so i just wanted to make sure i treated him with the respect and the person should be treated with, if you will because jim challenged that's the way jim was jim would have seen him would have wanted to talk him would have wanted to hear him out. but i also, as a mom wanted him to hear me out and hear who jim was. so i was nervous about it. but thanks to colin, friendship and being there with me and lots of good people, it was it was a good thing. i was very grateful. i want. so just to give you a little bit of a sense of the pace of the writing, the spirit of the

writing and some of the themes that you just talked about. you'll allow me. i just wanted to read a short from early on in the book. i am going to put my glasses on. actually otherwise i won't actually be able to accomplish that. so you together she so desperately wants him to know what he took away from world, what he stole. not to not just the journalist and activist james rightfully her son. her oldest boy but everything jim represent it down through the years it is one of the reasons she has come here to tell the truth with no sentimentality, no schmaltz, just the plain, straightforward truth. jim was a teacher you said to him, leaning forward her bracelets rattling. he worked with juvenile delinquents mothers too. as a journalist bore witness jim's search for the ground truth. he was fair he was curious. he was even tempered he was interested in equanimity.

jim aspired to have courage. he was a man for others. when he became a journalist, gave his life trying to expose the world to, the suffering of the syrian people. he was compelled to bear witness. he was a thoughtful son to the older brother of five, a friend he was widely loved. jim saw the good in everyone he believed in the complicated truth. he would have written coyote story. what is more, he would have gotten it entirely correct. i thought that was pretty stunning because can really see in those words there how it's poetic but also really tries to draw out who jim was as a person well call him how did you accomplish in terms of really taking the readers diane into the soul her son that's nicely said. i mean that's what i wanted to do. i will tell this that jim would never have wanted write about

himself. um, but he was always interested in the stories of others. um, and for me that was a key access and a way to get there. um, but as a writer, you have to find a form. uh, and in fact, samuel beckett said back in the 1980s, it is the job the artist now to find a form that accommodates the mess. so when i walked into that room in the courthouse in virginia, i could see a structure unfold in front of me that, uh, we could tell the story about diane meeting her son's killer. and then within of that, then we would be able to tell, uh to to reflect on the whole story, looking backwards. so it's actually told in third person at the beginning in first person for the rest of for most of the rest of the book. and then back in third person again, there's a sort of a trinity. there's a symmetry that was

going on and there was a lot of that that that that that we had to negotiate, um, you know, i had to, to, to, to understand and go a deep dive with them, you know, understanding diane's faith, uh, she had to tolerate me and my, my poetic, actually, you should talk about that like there were times that, okay column this is not a novel. that was part of the fun though column. those of you who've read this work know what a poet he is and how he is at helping readers feel. what's on and really be there but but at time was he wanted to embellish. i had to keep. but that was part of the fun i had to keep. oh you kind of thing but what an honor to have a column interested this story and helping me to tell because i really felt it was needed to be told and here's the deal right.

um, you know, this is an important story for journalism, for justice, uh, for, uh, you know, things that are going on in the world, but also at the, we're in the middle of international women's month and we just had international women's day. and this was an extraordinary again, you're going to have to like close ears because i'm going to embarrass you again. she's humble, but this a person who took a supposedly ordinary person who who took risks and, um after her son was killed, decided to turn that grief into something powerful. it became action. so without action is actually for the ruin of the soul, for her. what what she did was she decided she would change the whole landscape of how we think, uh, about the hostages taking wrongfully detained. she knocked on people's doors. she walked through washington, dc. uh, you know, in the rain, waited people out, got to know

people's names. did all this stuff. uh, but it took a lot of courage. and at that stage, you know, um, you know, diane, again, close your ears, um. she was in her sixties when all of this happened. and this is ten years ago. and the power that's it speaks to me about the possibility of change within the supposedly impossible, uh, that, that we're confronted almost every day the. other thing i do want to say, especially here tonight, is that diane saw the best of justice because. these guys were brought back from from from from syria, stripped of their british citizenship. she ensured that the along with others that there would be no death. but also they weren't shipped to guantanamo and they weren't after abu ghraib. they were put trial, you know, right here. and this was an extraordinary moment in american history. and it will be talked about as such in the years to come.

right. didn't you feel that when i mean, when was taken in 2012 and 2014, there was no one who wanted to help us. it was like we got the z team, you know. but the opposite happened. in 2022 when the department justice did a brilliant job, a very difficult job of bringing al sheffield's sheik to justice and negotiated the plea for. alexander right. so it the opposite and a very moment for our country i feel, you know, a really because accountability is essential, you know, when people take people, we must hold people accountable. so i'm very, very grateful for that. so you mentioned just now some of the universal themes that run through this book, it's a story

about jim it's a story about mothers it's a story about journalist it's it's a story about justice. it's also a story about families of hostages. and diane, you've done a lot of work. and you write about it in the book as well to try to help families that go through something like this that you went through. do you think there's actually been progress on that front in terms how the u.s. helps family families, hostages abroad? absolutely. we have charlotte here from the envoy of hostage affairs. that's so sweet of you to come, charlotte. one of the very dedicated people who work at the state department. there's a whole now that's specially developed for families of americans who are wrongfully or detained abroad. and charlotte charlotte's one of that team. but so we've thanks to their work and the work of the hostage

fusion cell in the white house more than 100 innocent u.s. nationals come home since jim was murdered. so to me, that's meraki bliss in many ways. however, that threat continues that challenge continues. we have to figure out how stop the horrible practice taking people and using as political pawns and the reality is it is hard to negotiate countries like russia, china you know iran and with terrorists like hamas. so the complexity continues and it really takes the very best of our government to a lot of those things. so therefore, the work of the foley foundation continues. our government and other wonderful ngo is because but deaf improvement. i mean now we have an entity cares and who is accountable to actually talk to families much

as they need to be talked to which is not at all the case. when jim was taken, call him. did you want to comment that part of the book, how you tried to draw that out? well, i think what important to talk about in a wider sense, um, is that we're living in increasingly strangely narrow times, uh, where people seem to be sort of dazed with certainty and you come into the room if you look like me and you come into the room if you vote like me, or you sound like me. um, but you stay out, um and, um, a lot of how we are thinking, um, seems to be, uh, you know, directed in very singular ways. and so we have these, these very narrow instinct, um, and one of the things about this particular topic is that the narrowness, uh, you know, a few years ago we've begun to think, in, in broader, more intel ways. and so dan used the word

complexity. i like the of messiness, you know, um and i, in fact, i want to write an essay, uh, um, my wife knows this very well in praise of messiness yeah, no, but i, but i also mean intellectual messiness that the, the ability for us to something like i don't know when you get asked a question to be brave enough to say don't know also as artists and writers and thinkers and people are involved in political situation and the the ability to to say um well that's complex let's try and and figure it figure it out. i think we will become, uh, better people when and that complexity, uh, gets, get, gets looked at and we are to say, like diane said when she went in and sat with alexander cody, um, you know, we don't need to necessarily love each other, we

actually don't even need to like each other. we hope that we eventually all could, but we must understand one another because if we don't understand one another, we're doomed. and so these lanes of narrowness that that that you in an increasingly you know big world where we shouldn't be narrow are ones that um as artists as teachers as journalists, as uh, for people involved in politics we have try to protect this where the essence of the sort of democratic instinct comes from me. so for me, you know, looking at this, at book, you know, um, and looking at this, uh, at this, this woman and her career, it was really important for me to, to, to, to be able to, to communicate the pulse of the moment, but also the little bit of confusion. it's little bit confusing when you go in to see cody. we like to almost we understood him almost. it's a little bit confusing when he starts about islam and

christianity. he seems to be, you know, a, um, a person of, of, of some integrity in relation to, certainly in relation to his religion and so on. and we're trying to deal with all of these things eventually, but it all comes down. is one person being brave enough to have the courage to actually try and go the divide and it's a big divide to go across the divide and say, i will look at you, you're human. and, uh we need to know each other and we become better when we know each other. doesn't mean that we have to kowtow to each other. it doesn't mean that we have to to to to to make it easy. but, um, i think that's part of what i understood essentially as she was going through this whole journey. when you were talking column, it reminded me diane, of the scenes in the book when he's actually talking to you about. his own children, i think, even showed you picture of them and you come to it at the end of the

book and you titled the book american mother. so what what are of the things or anything that you hope mother is take away from this book given your road as a mother has so hard. well, i think mothers parents know how tough it is to parent. right. and. i just think any person has the option to always choose to do that tougher thing the it jim has challenged me to try to find some good something could help others out of a horrible situation jim would have and he really challenged me to do the same and and think in our world today we're all challenged. right. you know, were challenged to try to understand the person that

disagrees with us or or the teenager that won't listen. you know we're all challenged in different ways. and i, i guess this book is partly. important to me because. i just want everyone to realize that can make a difference in their way because we all have gifts. we all have opportunities every day to do the hard thing, but may be the kinder thing in the world. it's it's been a challenge for me but i would think mothers are always trying to do that. and i think mothers are always trying to keep their kids alive. um, and when it doesn't happen, it's extraordinarily shocking, um, that, you know what we are you going to do part of the journey me was to watch this sort of almost charizard like

moment where diane talks about jim and tells story even in front of, uh, alexander, cody in order to keep him alive. i mean part of the reason that you went. diane is to tell him that you actually didn't really kill my son because his legacy will live on through stories and storytelling, and this is important in relation to art, uh, so important in relation to journalism. it's important in the way that we talk about our stories. we must tell these stories over and over and over again. otherwise, uh, you know, we're going, the those, um, a real possibility that we just close, our doors close, the curtains come inside, put that locked down the on our imaginations and go nowhere else and so what diane was saying, i is that well this is a shahrazad moment. you know, i will tell the story of my son in order to keep him alive.

and the great thing about it is that i really feel. i really feel honestly that he is powerfully alive and, uh, the way people think about him and, you know, that he would be grateful for the way people are actually changing that, that the landscape of the politics around the world and that 100 people came home when he wasn't able to come home. and i think our youth and all of us need real heroes. you know we need to know that ordinary people make a difference. you know, in our own little way. but it can be a big deal to the person on the receiving end of huge like when jim died, it was like all the best people stepped. it was like, you know. i really felt god's presence and particularly in the goodness of people who reached out to us. so was a part of the book that

was really hard to write together because the book reads so effortlessly. despite pain that's running through almost every line. but it reads like incredibly effortlessly. was there a part that was really really difficult to write. uh, not really. i mean, i'm a novelist and january takes me 3 to 4 years to to to to write a novel. this book, um, sort of presented itself and, um, it was done in a, what i wanted it to be was to truthful and honest at the same time. these are two different things, but they're the same thing. and to bridget, i wanted to be in the room to find the pulse of the present moment. so when diane goes in and sits there, i wanted people to feel like they were there. that was the most important for me. and then to try and get it right. and so it was nice then to, to,

to work and great editor and publisher mooney is here tonight. and we were extremely grateful for his wisdom and guidance in relation to, you know, bringing the story. bringing the story properly home, um, and, you know, sometimes you leave some stuff, stuff out and sometimes put some, some, some extra stuff in. of course, as we said a little bit earlier, my tendency was to just, you know, gilda, lilly, uh, and look, it's almost st patrick's day. like you're allowed gild the lily for a little moment or two. um, but not really what. i wanted people to understand was the power of, um, the political power, the supposedly ordinary and one of the reasons we call it american mother is, not because we wanted to glorify like some of those titles. you get american decent and no, but this was like very like diane is a nurse living in the suburbs and she decided, uh, that, um, things were going, going to change.

i find that sort of, um a beautiful moment. um, so all of that was on my mind, trying to get it. and then we sort of, uh, the book a little bit too in order to coincide the 10th anniversary, can you believe it has been ten years? um, it's really a lot has changed. a lot has changed, but essentially. um, you know, this story will be one of the stories of our times. look the photograph of him being killed is one of the, probably the second most iconic of the early part of, the 21st century, after the towers coming, people want to know that was about in the long run, the fact that now we've get a chance to to hear from his and uh and that is is to me a powerful testament to the power of literature and storytelling. diane, i want to leave question time for questions in the audience, but i wanted to ask you as a journalist, what is what are what is one of the

things that you would like people to take away from the book about who jim was as a journalist. jim i've learned a lot about journalism. i quite ignorant about the role of journalism in our democracy, in our freedom, in the way we think as america since i was really quite i must admit. but. jim got it. jim. it took him a while. he was a teacher first. he did creative writing many fine write it is real that need to be told. and once he found journalism he was so passionate about it and he would turn back he just felt that it was essential that we as a as citizens of country know the facts, know the different sides of issues that.

he was and he felt that we needed to also cherish our freedoms and recognize that in other countries how people for some of the freedoms we have. so jim really felt that to be a real journalist you had to be a person of moral courage. you had to be willing to search for the truth and tell that to all sides of the truth, if you will, so that people might be able to make the right decision. so jim has shown me the incredible value of journalism, and i would pray our country would come to realize that, that i think sometimes a lot of us like myself kind of took journalist's particular investigative journalists who take the risks to cover the deep the tough issues and to go harm's way for granted you know and that we whereas other

countries them a lot more so i would hope that as a country we could begin to value the worth of a journalist just like do of our brave soldiers and. our two honor our aid workers are educators. you know, there are a lot of people in our that make us a great country and i just would hope that we could remember them and i just to just add to that you know i love traveling we're traveling on book tours and we go and you hear the airports, you know, and anybody with a military i.d. or active military service, you know, come on and get on board early and that's cool. i these people are fantastic and. i have no problem with that whatsoever. but i can't wait until the day when they have their you take your teachers card, your teacher's union card. uh, up to the up to the front desk. and they allow you on or if they allow a journalist to come out, i mean, let's, let's at the the important professions, uh, and

begin to recognize, you know, uh, that that is a big complex layer, uh, of people that are there. but i love what, uh, diane is saying about jim, a journalist. here's the other thing. he was able to talk about policy and all that stuff, but really what he cared about was going in to the middle market, getting his shoes dirty, going down the alleyway. you know, going into the little room off the alleyway meeting. the old man is playing chess or, uh, you know, meeting the young girl is on her way to school carrying a box of books and writing the story about supposedly anonymous corner of human experience and using little speck of supposed dust to actually build up a whole, uh, a whole story that so that we could actually relate to it. so it wasn't just all about facts and figures. um, it was more about the human texture that was going on. so that's what jim really cared. and everybody who i talked to who knew him liked him.

that sounds simple, but they did, just like they thought he was fun. he was always brave to ask tough questions, but he went and got embedded. he did all these things, and i think he lit people up. he was like a candle to other candles and that and and that was one of the things and there's a lot of journalists like that around a lot them i just want to repeat that and an openness to questions he was like a candle. other candles i think you just said which quite a beautiful line and of itself. so write that down you could use that in another book to does anyone in the audience have a question that you'd like to ask. i. was going to pass the speaker on i know it's not amplifying but as so we can capture the question for the video. hi this is for column really after the recent hamas you know and gaza conflict i read a paragon i finally i'll repeat

it. yeah i just read a paragon and so now you've two books where the a so after a paragon i really found it like amazing. i was in such despair about humanity and, you know, all the things go on and it's such a hopeful book. and now you've written two books where radical empathy is at the core of it. so is this like niche that you're making for yourself now and like what comes next? because it's really we live in really dark times, right? and it's really amazing to read these books, have hope at the core of them. and i thank you for that and thank you for that question. the question is about like, you know, writing about, you know, the situations in the middle east, finding radical empathy and hope, uh, in the, the darkest sort of situation, which is exactly, uh, you know what, what diane does to for me, i mean, you write towards your obsessions and you find things and they come along and

sometimes honestly, the big lie about writers is that they know what they're doing. i mean, you just don't know what doing like you're hoping you're going on a wing and a prayer and you think and jayson, maybe i'll get this right. maybe something will out and so you're not really sure about what the team is going to be or any of that sort of stuff. but then readers make, the theme for you when the book gets read and the book gets passed, the book gets talked about, that's when it actually begins to operate in the world. i'm interested in these notions of radical empathy through. narrative four which is my non-pro outfit. um, and then diane has a spectacular nonprofit. uh and, and i think everybody should go to, to, to the page tonight if possible. the james w uh, legacy uh, foundation, please and give in $5 or $10 because the work that's being done in terms of moral courage and radical empathy is extraordinary on her part. can you give us the email

address address going to and i have bookmarked that has has the address james foley foundation dot but yes we continue to advocate for more u.s. national who are wrongfully arrested or kidnaped abroad as well as promoting journalists safety and inspiring all of us to moral courage. so we could use our your support. so that's the only way we've been able to what we've done thus far. very grateful for any support. hi, diane. hi, collum. it's good to see you again. my question is giant, if you can take us back to when jim was still alive, that you knew that he was still alive and it was our policy that we don't negotiate with terrorists and families. not if the families were hearing

from people were taking them like an isis. this case you had heard from them right that jim they had jim hostage and. you couldn't do anything you wanted to, but you couldn't because you would be prosecute you would be arrested. so can you just a little bit talk about that because? i want everyone to understand the impact that you have had through your voice you were able to go to obama with other family members who have loved ones hostages and you were very instrumental and them changing the policy a little bit so can you talk to us little bit about that? oh, sure, jim. thank you for that question. know, i was appalled as an american in 2012, 2014, when initially i was just over and over that jim was our country's highest priority over and over. so i kind of trusted that our

government was on it. i was going to bring jim home. i really did. i was very naive, ignorant of, our policy, which that time mean anyone who knew policy would know that president obama had no plans of negotiating jim's release or the other america. but i didn't know that and was always very sure that they were on it. but the others came home. we began to see, gee, it's appears that the other european hostages we actually are blessed to have one of the french hostages present at least this year. there aren't aren't aren't of nicholas henning who was taken hostage in france and his country was so passion about their journalist that they made they all came home and. i started to look at that. i thought, you know, they're really on it. and the spanish came home and

the italian came home. and then in that part, early part 2014, finally one person from the national security set told us, all four of the american families clearly that our country not going to negotiate, not ask another country to negotiate, nor would we do a rescue mission and don't date. don't you dare raise a ransom because you will be prosecuted. and we were told that times and at the time i was appalled at the callousness of it all. and yet he was the one who was the most honest, because at that moment in time that was the reality that our government was not planning to help any way and that we would prosecuted if we dared. i mean, we ahead and tried to pledges for ransom anyway but

the reality was the captors one they wanted to engage with that government our government did not engage they didn't care about what we had to say, to be honest. but that is improved in a huge way because not only jim was killed but journalist steven sotloff aid peter kassig kayla journalists luke somers, businessman wyatt warren weinstein were all killed in the same six month period and we are horrified as a nation and i really feel obama administration was horrified to shocked oh my goodness. i mean i think all everyone was shocked and and, you know, lot of good people stepped up and president obama realized that we had to do better. i was so angry i felt that as an american, we could definitely do better. i mean, we had at least try to

help people in this situation. and so, to his credit, president obama ordered a review of our hostage policy and set up our current u.s. hostage enterprise rather that includes folks like charlotte and others who work hard on behalf of victims. but as i said before us, still a lot to be done, but things are definitely better. thank you, john. now, is that we're still not negotiate terrorists but families quoting obama families can still do what they need to do their loved ones no exact. we don't allow we it's still messy. we don't. as a matter of fact, we had a case not that long ago family was not allowed to publicly raise any at all. so the themselves, if they were billionaires, could pay it. but they're not allowed to ask for help to.

ransom a loved one out. so it's still not there. we still yeah, we we need work on many things. that's one of diane's knowledge about. all of this is just incredible. she'll have all the names and she will rattle them off. i just want to say one thing in relation to to a paragon and israel, and palestine. um, is that rami and bassam were the two essential characters in that book. um, both say. it will not be over until. we talk, and i think that applies to so many things. just like just one question, just one question. do you say. no negotiation. no negotiation means why? well, at that time, you know, our government refuse use to

negotiate, particularly with terrorists groups, because we felt it would instead of incentivize more kidnaping and was no evidence for that as matter of fact, the evidence showed the opposite that if you don't negotiate with the kidnapers terrorists, the person is going to die because that's what the terrorists want. you know, however, president obama was continuing a slogan, if you will, that had gone on for many through many administrations. and that is why the foley is doing promoting more evidence based research that can actually support our policy to make sure it protects and our foreign policy. so because that was followed and many american lives lost because

of that slogan, if you will, that that really wasn't based in any research at all. so it was just it was a theory. it exactly. a question for both of you. diane, how did it feel to? put your trust in someone else to tell your story and for column, you know, you've written fiction, nonfiction, play. how was writing this different from the things you've written before? it was hard at first because i didn't know column and i stubbornly thought i could do well. it couldn't and i really couldn't. i couldn't it i'm not a writer and i knew the story wanted it told and. but as i got to know carl, he more and more he really a friend and that's when he he just reminded me of jim. he was just kind and he was

willing to listen. he was very patient with me and really wanted to help me bring the story alive. so once i realized i was just so grateful, so little story. i was at the dentist a couple of weeks ago, right? and the dentist is there and he has me shut, you know, and it's hard to shut up an irishman, but at the dentist he gets shut up. i and he's there and was like so and he, you know, he asked me earlier what to do. i books and he's and he's there there i said i've always wanted to write a book he to me, you know but i've just never the time and i'm a guy i have always wanted to do brain surgery, but i've never had the time and, you know, writing a book is hard. i'm lucky because for whatever reason i this is what want to do and need to do with the fiction and nonfiction.

i as much responsibility to my nonfiction characters as i do to my fictional characters. in fact, i question the word fiction and nonfiction. i'm not so sure it's a it's a good construct that anybody from the library of congress want to shoot me down because they want to shelve things and in different ways. but i think it all comes down to storytelling and telling truth. and i don't think the poet is more powerful than the then the playwright or the the playwright is more powerful than the journalist or that, you know, there's no hierarchy here. it all comes down to the and the way the word is, is is put upon the page. so my responsibility with this this thing was to get it as as right as possible. but i as i said, it was a little easier because it was there sort of in front of me. and i didn't have to know, you know, create these motives, things going on in my head. um, and, um, but i don't know if i'll do. it's my first major nonfiction, um, and i don't know if i'll do it again. i think i will. but i'm, i'm right now.

like i'm under deadline, in fact, for the end of this month to finish a novel that will come out this time next. so i have a new novel coming out as well. in fact, diane knows she got me off a boat in south africa. that because, um, you know, the story was writing another another story. uh. and this one came along and just knew i knew this story had to be told. and so i sort of abandoned the novel for a little while. uh, and then, um, now i'm back to it. but can i say this has been one of the great experiences of my life? peggy this is, this like just even traveling with, with, with diane and seeing the reaction of people, by the way, this is a just a book that women in particular i adore. and yeah we called it american mother and everything like that. but i think people can see someone that. you see in diane, someone they want to be. and i can't wait to put into

high schools with young girls who look at the you know, a figure like like like to her and say oh, i can make things happen because i think that's maybe the bit that maybe the big lesson of all this book is that, you know, i can tell a story and can make it happen. that might be personal if you don't want to answer it once knew that your son was killed which was your motivation? meet the captor killer. and did that change what you know in your quest to when to meet the killer of your son and then meeting him? did that motivation want to meet him? did change for you? well, i had no idea i would ever

encounter any of them, to be honest. when jim was killed, i didn't know if could ever apprehend the people who had kidnaped and tortured jim and killed them. i had no idea. so in 2018, when we found out now that was four years after jim murdered, they were apprehended in the middle east. and but it's took four years for more years, work out with the british government and u.s. government to actually extradite here so that that a lot of time and time that i was you know, busy working on our foundation work, working the government to help others home changed some our the way we approach things so i didn't know anything them

and so it was only in 2021 i guess right when they were actually extradite to alexandria, virginia and there were two of only two, um, who remained and one of them wanted the full trial and everything. i'll shafee el-sheikh but alexander pleaded guilty to all eight counts all. he just pleaded guilty to them all. and then interestingly to speak with victims and. i didn't expect that i never expected that opportunity. but when it was given to us, i knew i had to talk to him. it was i just knew jim would have talked to him. i just knew jim would have

wanted to hear him out. and as i said before, i wanted to have a chance to share with him who jim was. so i didn't know ahead of time at all, though. it just kind of fell in my lap thanks to the department of justice and they are shrewd negotiating ation with his team is so yeah it was an opportunity that given to me and can i just say amazing happens at the end of it all but you going to have to buy the book to find out what it is. next question. actually, i'm not sure this is going to be proper question. however, i haven't had a chance read this book yet, but i have read let the great world spin. numero is time. so when i saw that picture of jim, the book, i zoomed so much trying to figure out what page he may have been on and i mean, the book here is. so much radical empathy, right?

it's the fierce mothers. it's the loss of sons is finding a way to come back to life and i was simply again i'm not sure this is a question it's curious if that book served as a connect and bridge between the two of you or as you know almost like this thing that he left behind for all of to carry forward. jim, you know, that radical empathy and would you have connected it wasn't for that book. i don't think so. i really it in a way it was it was like jim's show in way jim obviously, jim loved good literature. he was always reading and the fact that he was reading columns, novel piqued, calms, curiosity for sure i don't i doubt if you you're novelists i mean, i doubt if you would have reached out necessarily i don't think we would have met without that. i mean the world is web together in truly extraordinary ways.

i did the same as you, i must admit. zoomed in on that photograph. i think he's in the tilly's section, which is kind a fairly naughty little section. and i think that's why he's got a little bit of a smile on his face. but no, the fact he was he was reading this book, you know, connected me to him, um, and, you know, when i saw photograph and then put it up against the other photograph that we all know about, then i had to balance all these things in my mind. and i wrote to diane immediately or not. not immediately, but within a couple of months. and then she never got that. she never got the email because i said, if you ever want to write about your son or about your own experience, i would do so. but she never got. and it wasn't until seven years later that we were on this accidental zoom that were brought together after a paragraph and, uh, that, that we were brought together. so there's some, i mean, you call it a god instance and here's something also very, very important. um, like diane's held so much

this together, and when she talks about the holy spirit being in the room. um, i think was all sorts of spirit that, that, that, that, that brought us, that brought us together. i think that was truly extraordinary. yeah. well, just wanted to thank you all for being here tonight. i wanted to thank column diane i know it's been a busy last couple of months on the road. you know, we've talked about radical empathy. we've talked about jim's great moral courage. i also just wanted to end by saying it's also beautifully poetic story of love. so you for being with us. we thank peggy and we thank all of you here at politics and prose and all of you took time to come. so good of you. thank. thank you all.