at universities now protests at universities now about the situation in gaza and those lists of demands. let me ask you a simple question. how much power do you think that students should have over what their universities do.7 professor their universities do? professor matt goodwin joins me tonight. he is a university professor, so i'm fascinated into his insight. but what's yours? also new guidance has been issued to mps this week about how to spot and combat conspiracy theories. everything from agenda 2030, the great reset, 15 minute cities, chemtrails , it all gets a chemtrails, it all gets a mention. what do you make to it all? and the army? how do we get people into it? there's a plan in place for the young week long summer camps and for the veterans. you go back for shifts. is this the future of the army? would you sign up to it ? i've caught all of that and it? i've caught all of that and more coming up in the next hour. but first, let's get tonight's

latest news headlines. >> michelle, thank you very much. and good evening from the newsroom . it's just much. and good evening from the newsroom . it'sjust after much. and good evening from the newsroom . it's just after 6:00 newsroom. it's just after 6:00 leading the news tonight. a man who led an armed robbery during which a police officer was shot dead has been sentenced today to a minimum of 40 years behind bars, 38 year old pc sharon beshenivsky was fatally shot when she interrupted the raid in bradford, nearly 20 years ago. 75 year old piran ditta khan, who spent 50 years, 15 years on the run rather, was found guilty of murder despite not pulling the trigger. he's the last of seven men involved in the robbery to be convicted. retired detective chief superintendent andy brennan described it to khan as a violent man. >> the reason why he's here at 75 years of age is on the basis that he decided to flee the country in order to try and make good his escape and avoid being held responsible and accountable for his part in what had taken

place. and let's be absolutely clear, he is clearly the one person that was responsible for organising and planning this and making sure that those that went in there had firearms and loaded firearms. in that case, a former prisoner has been detained in hospital indefinitely. >> for what? a judge at the old bailey described as the senseless killing of an elderly mobility scooter rider. the court heard that lee baker was psychotic when he stabbed thomas o'halloran in august 2022. the 87 year old grandfather suffered multiple wounds to his neck, his chest and abdomen. just five days before that attack in west london, baker had been released from prison on bail after serving a 12 year sentence for robbery . serving a 12 year sentence for robbery. labour serving a 12 year sentence for robbery . labour says that it's robbery. labour says that it's committed to scrapping the rwanda migration scheme if it wins the general election . sir wins the general election. sir keir starmer says if he becomes prime minister, he'll replace the scheme with a special border force to tackle people smugglers . dover mp natalie elphicke, who has just switched from the

conservatives to labour, has welcomed the approach, claiming that rishi sunak she says, has failed to keep the borders secure. however, the prime minister insists the rwanda plan is still the deterrent. the uk needs. >> the question for keir starmer, then, is if he cares so much about that, why did he vote against the new laws that we pass to give our law enforcement officers new powers ? they've now officers new powers? they've now used those to arrest almost a thousand people connected with illegal migration, sentenced them to hundreds of years in prison. and if it was up to him, all those people will be out on our streets. so i just think it's a rank hypocrisy of this position. >> meanwhile, the prime minister's also been defending the government's policies on net zero today, speaking at an event in oxford , rishi sunak said the in oxford, rishi sunak said the government is aiming to reach targets in a more pragmatic way. he acknowledged, though, that he has received a lot of flak for those policies, but maintains it's still the right move for the country. we've heard today that the uk is officially out of recession, with the latest figures showing the economy has grown by more than expected. the

office for national statistics estimates gdp rose by 0.6% in the first three months of the yean the first three months of the year, predicts ons were suggesting 0.4. rishi sunak says people will now start to feel better off, but shadow chancellor rachel reeves says the conservatives are out of touch. >> if you look at this prime minister's record since rishi sunak became prime minister, the economy is still £300 worse off per person in the country. so this these numbers today are not deserving of the victory lap that rishi sunak and jeremy hunt seem to want to go on. >> israel's eurovision entry eden golan insists the song contest is safe for everyone as she faced questions after securing her place in tomorrow's final . securing her place in tomorrow's final. thousands of pro—palestinian protesters marched outside the venue in sweden last night. they want israel to be banned from the contest because of the war in gaza. however before her performance, israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu criticised what he called an ugly wave of anti—semitism . and

ugly wave of anti—semitism. and finally, before we head back to michelle, the northern lights are expected to be visible across the uk tonight thanks to across the uk tonight thanks to a huge solar storm. forecasters suggest they're likely to be seen across parts of northern ireland, scotland and northern england and wales. experts are saying it could be the most powerful geomagnetic storm in almost two decades. that's the latest from the newsroom. another update at 7:00. until then, you can sign up to gb news alerts by scanning the code on your screen, or go to gb news. common alerts. >> thank you very much for that. i am michelle dewberry and i'm with you till 7:00 tonight. alongside me, i've got the professor of politics at the university of kent, mark goodwin, and also the political commentatorjonathan list. good evening to both of you. good evening. i love that last item on the headlines there. did you see it? those northern lights. let me see if i can get them

back onto the screen for you. how beautiful. look at that. have you ever seen such a sight? have you ever seen such a sight? have you ever seen such a sight? have you seen them? >> i did try to see them when i was in iceland, but i didn't manage to see them. >> i couldn't find them and they are very pesky. have you ever seen them, jonathan? >> no, i've seen the midnight sun. i've been to the arctic circle in may, and it never the sun never set, so that was gorgeous. but i've never seen the northern lights. >> well, have you managed to catch a glimpse? do me a favour. take a snapshot and send it. because i'd be absolutely fascinated to see what indeed, if anything, you actually managed to see. do you like stuff like that? is it your thing or not? you're very welcome tonight. i've got lots that i want to talk to you about. you can get in touch with me and join the conversation all the usual ways. you can email gbviews@gbnews.com. you can go on my twitter or reach me there at michelle dewberry or @gbnews. or of course you can go on the website gbnews.com/yoursay and join the conversation there. but i do think it'd be perhaps remiss of me not to start with a little bit of good news. everyone but a feel good friday activity. what am i talking about? well the fact, of course,

that figures have revealed that the uk has moved out of recession. i think this is really important just to touch on. don't worry, i'm not going to do a whole deep and meaningful economic chart this time on a friday night. worry not. but we always obsess, don't we, when things go the other way. and don't forget, of course , one of rishi sunak's five pledges. it was all about kind of halving inflation, get the economy growing and so on and so forth , and people are very quick forth, and people are very quick to hit him when it starts going in the wrong direction. so do you think matt goodwin, this is kind of a i mean, people won't really be feeling it in their pockets right now, but do you think this is a sign of success and achievement for the tories? >> it's good news. but as you say , do people out there feel say, do people out there feel it? that's the ronald reagan question . are you better off question. are you better off than you were four years ago? and that's subjective, right? do people really feel themselves getting better? better off. but it's good news on paper. it's good news that we're out of recession. >> very good. you do you share that optimism and happiness and upbeat ness. >> i think that there's a bigger point to be made, actually,

about the way that we interpret percentage points in gdp, because not most six is most people most people don't won't feel that in their daily lives. it doesn't really matter to you whether the economy is 0.5% up or 0.5% down. well, most people have felt over the last couple of years that things have gone in the wrong direction and that they haven't felt a recovery in their daily lives. that may change. we all hope that it changes , but i don't think that changes, but i don't think that any it is any kind of cause for celebration in wages and gdp is way down on on pre—pandemic levels, and wages are still obviously stagnating . so i don't obviously stagnating. so i don't think that this is obviously it's good news. you know, it'd be worse if it had had had retracted further. but it's certainly not good news. yeah, but you see you can be the final judge of it at home. >> do you think it is good news or not? because i've got to say, i just feel a little bit like if this was the opposite direction. so if we had gone deeper into recession, you'd never hear the end of it. the tory bashing would be off the scale. the doom and gloom would be kind of

bursting out of every single seam. so should we be a little bit more optimistic because i do think sometimes we're not, as kind of positive perhaps, as we should be when things do start, just even the smallest, glimmer of going in the right direction. tell me your thoughts on that. but today , did you see this? we but today, did you see this? we finally. we've been talking for such a long time, people often say, well, what's labour's plan for this? and what's labour's plan for that ? and this whole plan for that? and this whole conversation about stopping those birds, which probably is not going to be happening any time soon anyway. so keir starmer, he is now unveiled plans as to what he would be doing , he's plans as to what he would be doing, he's going to smash the people smuggling gangs. he's going to almost immediately drop that rwanda plan. he wants to take £75 million of the money that he'd save, and create a border security command unit . he border security command unit. he wants to involve people like m15 and so on, and so forth. is keir starmer then the man, matt goodwin , to stop these crossings goodwin, to stop these crossings in the channel once and for all? >> well, no , of course he's not. >> well, no, of course he's not. i mean, the labour plan is not

going to work. what they're going to work. what they're going to work. what they're going to do is remove the only two things that might actually serve as a deterrent. they're going to repeal the illegal migration act, which essentially says that if you enter britain illegally, you cannot claim asylum. and they're going to overturn the rwanda plan that the illegal migrants will be removed to rwanda. meanwhile they're saying they're going to smash the gangs through increased security, which makes me wonder what keir starmer thinks the government is doing at the moment or trying to do, look, michel, i've not met anybody who works on this issue in the national crime agency or elsewhere who thinks that this plan is going to work. elsewhere who thinks that this plan is going to work . what they plan is going to work. what they describe this plan as is whack a mole. you remove one gang and another one pops up because all you need is a dinghy and a torch, basically, to run a kind of a people smuggling gang. the only way we will get on top of this crisis and it is a crisis. it's an escalating crisis. the numbers are up 27% this year relative to last year. is by having an effective deterrent.

we need a third country deterrent like rwanda. maybe many other countries as well. that's where germany's going. it's where denmark's going. the french are having a debate now about this. we need to get serious about the scale of this crisis. i don't think labour are serious about this crisis. they're not serious, jonathan. >> i think they are serious. but l, >> i think they are serious. but i, i think it's really good news that starmer said , you know, that starmer said, you know, definitively that he's going to scrap the rwanda bill, which is pure political posturing, performative cruelty . it's not performative cruelty. it's not going to work anyway. but where i agree is that this isn't going to work on itself by itself. obviously, we have to tackle the people smugglers. everyone agrees on that. no matter where you are on this issue, but it's not addressing the underlying issues behind this problem. now, we don't need an effective deterrent . we need an effective deterrent. we need an effective alternative. people are always going to be seeking asylum in britain. they will always be a market for this. as you say. and i agree with you, it's the game of whack a mole. if you sort of

target them in one place, they'll go other places. and actually that is going to put people's lives at risk. as experts on this have pointed out, people will seek even less safe places to, to go on the boats, they , you know, they boats, they, you know, they might go through worse conditions on their way here. we might see an increase in people drowning in the channel. so the answer is, if you really want to cut this , industry, this gang, cut this, industry, this gang, kind of business that's sprung up, you allow people safe and legal routes to claim asylum here, which is an internationally recognised human right . there are many ways you right. there are many ways you can do that. look, you can have processing centres in france , so processing centres in france, so you can allow people to claim asylum in france. you can allow people to board vessels to come to the uk in order to claim asylum, and then have the claims processed very quickly. while they're here, you can allow more schemes from different countries, different hot spots in the world where we see influx of migrants, for example, sudan, which very few people are talking about, but is you see huge numbers of internally displaced people from that country. there are so many

things you can do. you can even allow certain people to claim asylum in in british embassies abroad. they're not interested in any of this. ask a question then. >> right. so first of all, how do you know rwanda isn't going to work? >> well, he called it performative cruelty. >> how do you know it's not going to work? >> well, even by the government's own, measures? matt, rwanda can only take a few hundred people a year, and we've seen 9000 people arriving so far this year as it is moving to, to ireland. well, actually, if you look at the figures in ireland, there's no definitive proof yet that it there's no definitive proof yet thatitis there's no definitive proof yet that it is a deterrent. look it might look it might well be none of it. you don't know. >> but what i'm saying you don't know. i'm saying rwanda isn't going to work. but i'm saying, how do you know rwanda is not going to work? >> well, it's certainly incredibly expensive. but what is the measure, the what is the metric for it actually working? is it for no small boats to be coming across the channel anymore, fewer people to be risking their lives like the young girl, the nine year old girl who lost her life in the channel. >> and i'd say that's on the hands of everybody who doesn't really want an effective deterrent. the second question i

have for you is, you say safe and legal routes. what's your upper limit? what's the number? how many should we accept? >> well, obviously you will have a processing centre, a processing system where people are not evaluated based on numbers. they are evaluated based on on their needs. so i don't have i don't have an upper number for you. i think it's, you know, the history of every politicians say legal routes without actually giving anybody a number. matt, you know as well as i do the history of politicians setting limits. they just make a rod for their own backs. david cameron said tens of thousands a year, and it haunts him for his whole whole premiership. and it's obviously haunted. all of his successors, i think. i haunted. all of his successors, ithink. i don't haunted. all of his successors, i think. i don't think that's sensible politics. >> first of all, i'm not a plan. >> first of all, i'm not a plan. >> will deliver. >> will deliver. >> i'm not. >> i'm not. >> first of all, i'm not a politician unlike you, obviously, and i'm not a spokesperson for the labour party. so you know, what the labour party does is the labour party. i can disagree with it, but i don't believe that's good politics to set up a numbers. but i do think that that is not the right way to approach it. you should be approaching it where people are entitled to claim asylum as they are around the world, and other european countries take far more refugees

than we do by people enter britain illegally. >> should they have the right to asylum, they have should have the right to claim asylum because they are not being given alternatives to come here legally. >> that's the entire point. if you are coming from sudan, for example, where everyone can agree there's a huge humanitarian crisis right now, there is no legal way for you to come to the uk. none whatsoever. thatis come to the uk. none whatsoever. that is wrong. there should be a safe and legal way. and if there is, that will take away at a at a at an entire pinch the people smugglers business operation. >> so this is, this is what i think is, is at the core of this michel. >> this is going to be the only meaningful dividing line at the next election. is this issue is whether you basically and i'm not here to advocate for the conservatives. i just want fewer people losing their lives in the channel. you either want to have an effective deterrent that says actually smashing the gangs isn't going to be enough. we're going to need something else to discourage people from trying to get into britain in the first place, or you're going to go with this very vague, abstract talk about safe and legal routes and not having a deterrent. and let's just have people in the asylum system with no with no

uppen asylum system with no with no upper, with no upper limits. the british people , 80% of whom british people, 80% of whom think the borders are out of control, the vast majority of whom say they want lower numbers, they want fewer people coming into the country, and who also, to be blunt, are sick of paying, also, to be blunt, are sick of paying, as we discovered this week, £14 billion a year on this illegal migration crisis. these numbers are enormous . imagine numbers are enormous. imagine what 14 billion could do to the nhs. >> people are being people are being kept in hotels because they're deliberately being kept in limbo by the government, which is refusing to process their claims following the illegal migration act, which you're supporting. >> that is the that is the act that meant that people were no longer able to claim asylum if they came here illegally. i think that's completely wrong. i think that's completely wrong. i think that's completely wrong. i think that you should allow people the right to stake their claim to have it processed. i'm not saying that everyone who is an asylum seeker should be granted asylum. i'm actually a big fan of economic migration, but that's a separate issue. and i think that this is also being used as a huge distraction from the very, very large numbers of migrants who are not coming here illegally. the government is so embarrassed by the record high numbers of legal migration that

they are desperate to talk about they are desperate to talk about the fraction of migration which is irregular. and if you're talking about illegal migration, it's almost as though the government is has no say over what's illegal. the government literally makes laws. they could say that you could come here and it's going to be legal. they're not doing that. and by and so doing, they are actually giving money to these criminal smugglers. >> it might as well be handing money to them. >> we just also need to be clear that by removing these deterrents, by removing the illegal migration act and the rwanda plan, what we're doing is in big, bright neon lights. we're saying to every would be illegal migrant around the world. britain is open for business, but you're just saying it's illegal. we just need to be we need to be realistic. >> you should be talking about is going to happen. if labour is talking about going back to the status quo ante of the labour years, for example, where the asylum system was actually reasonably well run, there wasn't a huge backlog running to years, and actually the government was able to decide we're not living in 2001 anymore. >> obviously, the situation is different now, but other countries have managed to,

sustain their their economies to their social cohesion without effectively outlawing asylum, which is what this government has done . has done. >> so just so i understand your position, are you saying that actually we should have essentially processing units in pretty much every single foreign. >> no, no, i'm saying look, i'm saying there are different options, michel. i'm saying that you could have processing centres in france , so people centres in france, so people have their asylum claims adjudicating about doing it in places like sudan. >> and so would you have those kind of facilities? >> sudan. when i say sudan, i'm using it as an analogue to the schemes that the government had for afghanistan and ukraine, for example , which were obviously example, which were obviously hotspots, which were seeing a lot of refugees . lot of refugees. >> let me just ask you as well, quickly, what's cruel about if someone's trying to seek safety, if they are really being persecuted, what's cruel about them? sending them to a safe country where they're going to have a decent life? >> you're deporting people to a country, which is, you know, in has no they have no connection to you. >> they might not have any kind of family relation to you. they don't want to go there.

>> what we've seen with countries, asylum seekers, with what you saw with connections, jonathan, it is often actually about that. >> that's a lot. >> that's a lot. >> that's safety isn't it. >> that's safety isn't it. >> one of the biggest reasons why people come to britain is because they do have connections here. they speak english. what you saw when israel had a rwanda scheme, by the way, is that the vast majority of the people who went to rwanda then escaped. they escaped rwanda because it wasn't working for them. you have to be realistic. it's not just about cruelty, it's about pragmatism. >> what about staying in the first safe country they arrive at? >> well, then that's look, this is a if. >> this is what i mean. if you were in italy, if you were in italy or in greece, you would not be saying you would not be using that argument. >> why? because it's simply not fair for the country furthest to the right to be absorbing everything. it should be. this is a global crisis. it should be absorbed by by different countries, by different wealthy countries. everyone should be doing their share. >> this is about solidarity. >> this is about solidarity. >> people watching this programme would bristle at the idea that britain has not been doing its fair share through hong kong, through ukraine is we've effectively outlawed, we've effectively outlawed, we've effectively outlawed, we've effectively outlawed asylum and outsource the problem

we're trying to make people losing their lives, not we're trying to restore control. >> if we were really concerned about people losing their lives, we would be allowing them safe and legal routes rather than forcing them onto boats where they are not safe. >> what do you make to it all at herm? i can tell you . i can herm? i can tell you. i can almost hear you shouting at your televisions. i know you and i know you'll have very strong opinions on that. tell me your thoughts in all the usual ways. when i come back, i want to talk to you about the goings on. you will have seen this on many lawn, associated with universities. how much do you think, students should have over what their universities do when it comes to things like gaza? tell me

i >> -- >> on friday night live with mark dolan. can labour stop the boats? have the anti—vaxxers been proved right all along? why? i'm praying for an israel victory in eurovision. and as he's reduced to tears in nigeria. is king charles right

to give prince harry a bit of tough love? your weekend starts here. friday night live with me mark dolan from 8 pm. on gb news. bring a bottle. >> hi there. i'm michelle dewberry and i'm keeping you company till 7:00 tonight alongside me, the professor of politics at university of kent, matt goodwin, and the political commentatorjonathan lis. matt goodwin, and the political commentator jonathan lis. we were just talking then, about whether or not you think that labour will be the party to stop the boat crossings, putting it politely , i think the short politely, i think the short answer that i'm hearing and not so subtle away from you as some of you guys is, know, you don't actually think that's going to happen. andy says labour solved these problems. are you joking? all they seem to do is make these things worse. people seem to have forgotten that blair started so much of this with getting involved in so many foreign conflicts, says andy. alex says sending people to

rwanda is a ridiculously overly expensive project. starmer has it right. he says , stop it all it right. he says, stop it all at the root, it's the it's not the smugglers that are the problem, says sam. it is the people making these decisions because there would be no smugglers without the demand for them. well, there you go. i mean, you could go chicken and 999 mean, you could go chicken and egg around that one all night long, couldn't you? in terms of who is driving the demand, is it the people want to making the crossings, or is it those people offering those crossings? we've just been all talking about it in the break and all collectively saying that, of course, everybody wants to see an end to the things that we saw. that little girl who died in the channel. i have to say, by the way, she did die having been trampled on by lots of the guysin been trampled on by lots of the guys in that boat. what a lovely boatload of men we've just imported that happily, seemingly will stamp on a little girl to death. goodness me. anyway, let's talk protesters, shall we? because you will have seen some of these scenes unfolding now in

universities, right up and down the country . actually, we've the country. actually, we've seen so many people taking to their tents with reams of demands in some cases about what they want their universities to do or not do. should i say, when it comes to the situation in gaza , matt, you are a university gaza, matt, you are a university professor. yeah. i mean, i can get some of these images on the screens. we can go through some of these demands in a second. there you go, first things first. how much of a kind of say , say, over the goings on in terms of where funds get invested and all the rest of it do you think university students should have? >> well, i think on on this issue, what we've seen both in the us and the uk with these protests, i think firstly, i'm very comfortable with students being able to exercise their free speech and their free expression on campus to say what they really think about these issues. but what i don't think students should be able to do is dictate the policies of a university, or indeed a

democratically elected government. they should certainly not be able to , certainly not be able to, disrupt university buildings. the teaching of other students, which we've seen in the us, they shouldn't be able to stage violent protests. they shouldn't be able to work with outside agitators to undermine the universities. and i think underlying the anti—israel protests in both the us and the uk , what we've seen actually is uk, what we've seen actually is the extent to which this very corrosive identity politics is now permeating universities across the west. it's simply impossible now to look at the universities and say, we don't have a problem with higher education, because clearly we do. we have a very simplistic world view that's taken hold of campus, which basically says, well , certain campus, which basically says, well, certain nations are inherently evil, oppressive, bad and racist. the white majority is , negative, including, by the is, negative, including, by the way, jews who are seen as part of the majority group and any and every minority around the world from palestine to africa is virtuous, is morally

superior. we must align our institutions with those minority groups now that, you know, call it woke, call it social justice, call it identity politics. there is now a growing consensus among academics on the left and the right from yascha mounk on the left to chris rufo on the right, that this is now a real problem in, in the universities. and we need to really push back hard against this corrosive ideology. >> do we need to push back hard against this stuff? >> jonathan, i think it's a gross oversimplification. what matt has just said. no one is saying that the saudi arabian regime is something that we should aspire to for its sort of enlightened values , and sort of enlightened values, and sort of jews are part of the problem. that's an outrageous would be an outrageously anti—semitic thing to say. the vast majority of these students are not anti—semitic. they're not racist i >> -- >> they are not. >> they are not. >> it's not an anti—semitic thing to say. just what i'm saying . saying. >> i'm not saying what i'm saying is the university you say something anti—semitic implicitly mainstreaming anti—semitism, which we've seen

that if the students were saying that if the students were saying that jews were part of the problem, that would be an anti—semitic thing to say. >> clearly, i have not seen evidence that anywhere close to a majority, you know, is saying anything like that. it's a very small minority of people who are using racist tropes. and obviously we should condemn those people unequivocally, but thatis those people unequivocally, but that is not what we're talking about. look, i agree with you that we need free speech on campus, and it's, extremely telling and predictable that the number 10 has called in, some university officials to talk about 17 universities when given the given that the conservative party has made such a big deal about having a free speech tsar , about having a free speech tsar, but, you know, to enforce the right to hear diverse opinions on campus. but lo and behold, it turns out that the opinions they really want to enforce are the opinions shared by the conservative party. so i am wary about this. obviously we have to deal with hateful speech no matter where it comes from, but students have an absolute right.

as matt says , to express as matt says, to express whatever opinions they like. what they actually manage to achieve is, you know, up to a negotiation between them and the university's concern . and but i university's concern. and but i absolutely don't subscribe to this. oversimple idea that matt is saying that these students think that we have goodies and baddies in this binary way, and actually , what we're seeing when actually, what we're seeing when you listen to some of these students, they have they actually have extremely nuanced ideas and actually quite a good grounding in a lot of the history behind this. they may not come to the same conclusions as you, but it doesn't mean that it's not valid to have those opinions and to seek change from the universities. and for what it's worth, a lot of these demands, i think, are quite reasonable. you know, reinvesting in palestinian students, academics and scholars. given that israel appears to have demolished all centres of higher learning in gaza, that would seem to be an eminently sensible and reasonable request, they want to do things like divest all the funds, and collaboration away

from basically any organisation that they would argue has too close ties to people or places like the israelis. they want all of these financial things. so where are these universities investing, spending money? they want all of that to be kind of made much more transparent. and they want to overhaul their universities investment policies and so on and so forth. anyway, are you oversimplifying? >> it's interesting. it's interesting, isn't it, because you say that they there's a nuanced view on campus. i don't recall seeing similar demands with regards to how universities engage with, let's say, china or how universities deal with saudi arabia or corrupt regimes across africa, because those don't fit into this very simplistic, binary world view , which the binary world view, which the palestine conflict is . the palestine conflict is. the palestine—israel conflict is ideally, you know, is at the epicentre of for these students . epicentre of for these students. this is really about, a very us and them zero sum battle between the oppressors and the

oppressed. why should students be, demanding where their universities invest resources in what on earth has that got to do with their education? i mean, higher education? why? why on earth should students be able to, say how the universities, you know, where they spend money, which which they use? hang on. >> this is this this is the this is the product of actually of capitalism, actually, that's a product of the university model that in the last 20 years, students have gone from being students have gone from being students who are benefiting from a service to consumers and customers because they're paying a fortune for their education, and they are putting money into those university coffers and in the same way. but yeah, so you are putting when you're putting right, when you're putting money and the taxpayers have a right to know whether the university is spending that money as well. >> when you are a consumer and you're a service user and you're paying you're a service user and you're paying good money for that service, it's actually according to the sort of capitalist norms. you have every right to know where that money is going. and you know how the university is

spending that money. whether you want to be associated with that and to press for change. now, should the universities bow to every demand? i'm not saying they should. about every demand. i think it's notable that trinity college dublin, for example, has agreed to divest from certain corporations. brown university in the united states has done something similar. there are different ways of going about this. a lot of these demands are quite reasonable. >> this isn't just about capitalism. this is about prioritising the emotional safety of students. this is about treating students as though they are victims , as though they are victims, as though they are victims, as though actually we should pander to their every need and demand . to their every need and demand. and that is not how we should know. >> you know, the other thing is that the other thing is imagine because i just want to speak up for, the jewish communities here in britain. imagine. well, i'm a jew. i slightly resent that because i'm jewish myself, and you don't need to speak on my behalf. so imagine. >> well, i've not heard you raise this point so far, but imagine how jewish students on these campuses have felt, or indeedin these campuses have felt, or indeed in the us, where they've been intimidated, harassed, beaten up, locked into rooms. they've been told by rabbis not to go onto campus because they are considered to be no longer

safe for jewish students , should safe for jewish students, should we just reflect on that for a minute? because i haven't heard that so far, what i would like to see are all of the university heads, the ivy league heads who were summoned before congress a few months ago, who were told to condemn in no uncertain terms, anti—semitism on campus. and what happened? three heads of the top ivy league universities harvard , penn state and mit. harvard, penn state and mit. they refused to condemn the anti—semitism that was taking place on campus. now, we all know the harvard and the harvard heads and harvard had to resign afterwards. yeah, well, she had to resign because of the outrage over her refusal to condemn anti—semitism. >> something bad happened . what? >> something bad happened. what? i'm saying she faced the consequences for it. >> imagine any other form of prejudice. imagine if it was any other minority group. imagine if it involved african americans or hispanic latinos or whatever trans students. there would be outrage, but because it actually involved israel and because it involved israel and because it involved jews , university involved jews, university leaders refuse to take action and condemn that anti—semitism. and this is where many people

ask themselves, why are we funding these institutions that are just preaching anti—western dogma ? and that's a legitimate dogma? and that's a legitimate question, i think, for taxpayers. >> i don't think that universities are preaching anything. but what about the anti—semitism issue? well well, obviously. >> what do you expect me to say? that anti—semitism is good? of course , that anti—semitism course, that anti—semitism should be condemned at every. and i think i probably have more experience of it personally than you do, actually, matt, by the way, that's why i'm surprised you're not speaking. well. well, i actually am entitled to have a nuanced view. and actually, my ethnicity doesn't have to take all of my political opinions. and this is actually quite fundamental to this debate, because jewish people, lo and behold, are in fact a broad group of people. we don't all we're not all the same. we don't all believe the same things. and we're entitled to have different beliefs. the expectation that we will all think the same is, in fact, antisemitic itself. so obviously, if there is a jewish student who feels threatened in any way, i would absolutely want to extend my sympathy and to find out what exactly has been the threat made to those

students and if there is any evidence that those students have been threatened in any way, the firmest action should be taken against the culprits. but i don't think it's acceptable to say that because some jewish students have expressed a kind of a feeling unsettled around campus, that we can therefore discount the entire set of protesters protests and all the protesters protests and all the protesters who have been making points in a very, very valid way about what they see as the war crimes being perpetrated by israel and judaism in israel are not the same thing, by the way. well you can have the final say on that coming up after the break. >> conspiracy theories mps have been briefed about what to look out for and be on high alert for . at the heart of many of them, apparently, is anti—semitism . apparently, is anti—semitism. what do you make to all of this? see you in

hello there. i'm michelle dewberry, and i'm keeping you company till 7:00. alongside with the professor of politics at the university of kent , matt at the university of kent, matt goodwin, and the political commentatorjonathan goodwin, and the political commentator jonathan lewis , commentator jonathan lewis, students are customers and universities are service providers, says andy. if students don't like what their university is doing, they should do what all customers are free to do. find another supplier. simple. claudette is having none of that, she says if these students are so concerned about their university's investments, then they should have researched all of those things before applying and joining and attending that university, in america , some of these sit ins, america, some of these sit ins, have found apparently that many people in these camps are not even students at these universities. they're just there for the ride , apparently, for the ride, apparently, according to mark. anyway, keep your thoughts on all of that coming in. i want to move on. although some might say is in some way linked to some of that conversation we've just been having about anti—semitism,

because now there's new guidance out which shows mps all about how to spot and combat so—called conspiracy theories. i've got to say, i find this quite interesting. so this was all commissioned by penny mordaunt. she worked alongside the antisemitism policy trust to look at, look at this and identify some of these areas. i think i can actually pop up onto the screen a chart at the moment . i have to carry out this. as i've just said, this was created by the antisemitism policy trust. that might explain in some ways why they've firmly put anti—semitism at the root of some of this stuff. they talk about , some of this stuff. they talk about, covid—19 some of this stuff. they talk about , covid—19 chemtrails, the about, covid—19 chemtrails, the great reset, 15 minute cities, the great replacement theory, the new world order, and so on and so forth . firstly, they call and so forth. firstly, they call all of those things, conspiracy theories, and then secondly, they somehow linked them all back to anti—semitism. what do you make either to the fact that some of these things are being

regarded as conspiracy theories and or the link then to that central point , i and or the link then to that central point, i think that it's reasonable to make a link between some of these conspiracy theories and anti—semitism, but i don't think i put anti—semitism at the, at the very, very centre of all of them. for example, i have, a friend who, believes that covid was in fact a hoax, and he, says, you know, this is obviously not, i say he's a friend, but, you know, this is not an opinion that i, that i have appreciated that he has expressed to me and that he thinks that this is partly, sort of about israel , that israel was of about israel, that israel was using this to kind of, enhance its pharma sector, or that it was big pharma that was responsible for covid, not just that the vaccine, but covid itself , to which the obvious itself, to which the obvious reply would be, and the rest of the world just went along with that to suit big pharma or to suit the israeli government or whatever. and that, i would say would be an antisemitic

conspiracy theory, even though my friend wouldn't consider himself anti—semitic at all. and it kind of touches on some of the issues that we were just talking about a moment ago, about sort of the conflation with jews and israel. and sometimes when people are criticising israel, it is anti—semitic. and when people are talking about george soros, for example, that is an antisemitic trope. and the rothschild banking family, for example, that's an antisemitic trope. but a lot of these things, these other things we see on this list, michel, i wouldn't say particularly relates to anti—semitism. the great replacement theory, for example, which is that a white supremacist idea that, white people are being replaced by other races. i mean, that could, you know, apply to all kinds of ethnic minorities besides jewish people. but the fundamental point is that everyone should be savvy and aware of what the conspiracy theories are and that they should, particularly people in positions of responsibility and power, should not be propagating them. matt. >> well, i think obviously there are conspiracy theories, but i think i also get nervous about these debates around conspiracy theories or misinformed nation or disinformation, because i look at some of the things that

we've branded conspiracy theories in recent history that have turned out to actually be pretty valid. i mean, i take the example of the lab leak, you know, the covid, the origins of covid. i remember at the very beginning when people were suggesting that actually this might have something to do with a lab leak, and everybody said, oh, this is a crazy conspiracy theory. nobody should take this seriously. we now know actually, we should take that quite seriously. we should, you know, explore the possibility of that. and, you know, there are other issues, too. i mean, i've seen within the immigration debate as an example, people who express concern about migration, have been warned of misinformation and, and disinformation, when in fact they're concerned about real world things that are happening out there in the country . so, yes, there are country. so, yes, there are conspiracy theories, but i'm also anxious about how, you know, concepts are expanded sometimes to try and silence or stigmatise arguments that that members of the ruling class find quite uncomfortable. and that's where i just urge a bit of caution. >> yeah, i think it is just very

much, you mentioned that about that lab leak theory. i know many people have got in touch with me that the where concerned. where do you go back in time to the beginnings of covid? you were immediately , covid? you were immediately, called all kinds of names. if you had the audacity to even think anything other, what then? what was dictated to you by pretty much every single media outlet and politician and so on and so forth in the land, many people will remember saying such as you will earn nothing and be happy. as you will earn nothing and be happy . you'll have lots of happy. you'll have lots of farmers, for example, feeling very disgruntled now about things like, well, hang on a second, where's all of this joined up policy thinking where they have to give 10% of their land over to planting trees and so on. on surf off, i can hear lots of you telling me your thoughts about that at home. don't be backwards in coming forwards getting in touch. i'm sure you will not let me know your thoughts after the break. are you a veteran? would you go back to the army to help plug gapsin back to the army to help plug gaps in staff and are you a young person or do you have one? do you think there should attend

a week long summer camp to try and entice people to join? tell me

hi there. i'm michelle dewberry with you till seven. professor mark goodwin and jonathan ellis remain alongside me. let's just cut to the chase. we all know by now that recruitment into the army is somewhat lacking. so you need creative solutions. then there's a couple of things being thrown up, and i want to run them by you. do you think a week long summer camp to get teenagers involved with the army is going to be a good thing? and also, if you're a veteran, what about bringing you guys back? almost like a supply staff type thing to try and plug gaps in the army. good idea or not, matt. >> i think it's a good idea. you know, i think if you look at the problems facing britain, can i just say sorry? >> everyone very rudely regular viewers will wonder what i'm

doing. it is friday jul brits having his open. cheers, everyone. cheers. cheers to the weekend i forgot. continue. >> cheers, i think you know, you look at the problems facing britain. we've got lots of people on welfare, lots of people on welfare, lots of people outside the labour market. we've got young people not really knowing whether they should be going into education, work, all those sorts of things, i think anything that encourages a sense of collective identity gives people purpose , gives gives people purpose, gives people a reason to get up in the morning is worth exploring. >> i mean, it won't surprise you to know that i have some suspicions about the military in general. i think we should have a military. i don't think we should abolish it or anything. and i suppose within that, if you are, if there are people who might want a career in the military or think that it might suit them and they don't have a military background and they don't necessarily have, the, you know, a way that they might find themselves in the military, then this might be quite good for them. i, i don't discount it. i certainly wouldn't want it to be mandatory in any way , one of my mandatory in any way, one of my viewers has said that he once upon a time wrote to the then prime minister, john major, and

suggested that all secondary school basically had what he calls combined cadet forces. he feels if that had been introduced, if they'd paid attention to in bruce's name, is that actually situation lie—ins with the military might not be as bad as they currently are. one of my viewers has got in touch and said, can you ask matt goodwin, what are these rumours he's hearing about the new party that he wants to set up? >> yeah, so i think everybody's fed up with british politics. we've had 14 years of conservative failure. we all know i think labour don't really have the answers to britain's problems. over the last year, i've pulled together 34,000 people on, the substack, which is a blog that goes out every week. and i've said to some of those people last night, if we get to 100,000 subscribers, then we'll go into politics. we'll either start something new or we'll support something that that comes along and is trying to address some of these problems much more seriously, because i think if you look at the people who are trying to bnng the people who are trying to bring about change at the moment in british politics, you look at

say, you know, some of the smaller parties that are starting to starting to cut through in the polling. i actually think the potential for bringing about change is much bigger than what they are currently realising. and this is above, left and right. michel this is about actually giving power back to the british people and saying that on on big issues, on immigration, on crime , on the economy not working for british families, we need to give power back to the british people, power to the people . people, power to the people. >> i mean, ijust would kind people, power to the people. >> i mean, i just would kind of >> i mean, ijust would kind of ask matt how this would be different from the reform party, for example. and also, i mean, you know better than anybody about how our electoral system works and that we've had no end of vanity projects over the years from robert kilroy—silk to change uk. and obviously they all tanked in the polls. i'm sure that you'll give them a run for their money, but you know that you are not going to a new party, is not going to suddenly mop up a groundswell of support unless you have, you know, incredibly vie, just the, you know, serendipitous , coming know, serendipitous, coming together with an incredibly charismatic leader such as nigel

farage with the brexit party, which came i think there are a lot of people in british politics at the moment who are part of the solution to the problems that we face, but i think actually, in order to fix the problems facing britain, we're going to need a much wider coalition of people to bring about that kind of change and small parties. >> obviously, it's very difficult under a first past the post system, not impossible, but very difficult . i've asked the very difficult. i've asked the labour party they were a small party once, not impossible, but it's also beyond the ballot box. it's about changing the ideas and the conversation. in this country there are many issues that we talk about that you can't talk about out there in the country, mass immigration being out of control. >> we're talking about the whole time we've been talking about for the last the last hour, we talk about nothing else in this country. here. we do. >> but out there, the labour, labour and the conservative party now share a big consensus on these issues. they think exactly the same. we need to change that. >> well, i don't forget as well we addressed this yesterday didn't we, dominic cummings, he was talking, about potentially setting up another party as

well. i think his was called start—up or something, wasn't it? robert, one of the viewers, he's got in touch and said he would solve all of the issues when it comes to protests at universities. it'd make all universities. it'd make all universities go all online on, who's this as well? i like this one. one of my viewers has just beenin one. one of my viewers has just been in touch, steve, he says i'm an infantry officer and i'm still fit enough to die for the flag. my king, my wife, my daughter, my grandchildren. if call to, he would absolutely step up to the plate. but would you , jonathan, thank you very you, jonathan, thank you very much for your company , matt, for much for your company, matt, for yours too. and of course, thank yours too. and of course, thank you very much for being with me for the last hour. don't go anywhere, though. lee anderson is up next. but nanites from me . is up next. but nanites from me. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on gb news . news. news. news. >> good evening. welcome to your latest weather update from the met office here on gb news. the warm weather will continue into the weekend for many. another cracking day tomorrow if you

like. it's sunny, but we are in for a change by sunday in the west where we could well see some thunder storms. in the east it's mist and low cloud that's just dribbling back in from the nonh just dribbling back in from the north sea, turning things fairly murky for the start of the weekend across eastern england. but elsewhere, long clear spells decent night for spotting the aurora. there is a chance across the northern half of the uk. not too chilly either. temperatures mostly holding up in double digits, certainly in towns and cities , and a fine sunny start cities, and a fine sunny start to come on saturday. the main exception will be lincolnshire, down through to cambridgeshire. the london area may well start a bit murky, but by mid to late morning that mist and low cloud will have cleared. just a potential for it to affect some eastern coast of england at times and we'll see cloud bubbung times and we'll see cloud bubbling up through the day with 1 or 2 scattered, but potentially heavy showers over central and northern scotland. but most will stay dry and fine and warm with temperatures in the low to mid 20s. sunday's still pretty warm, but more of that mist and low cloud, particularly eastern scotland. so some ha on that aberdeenshire coast, especially greater chance

of seeing a few more showers breaking out across the highlands, but more particularly further south across the west of northern ireland, parts of wales and western england. some thunderstorms, potentially on thunderstorm s, potentially on sunday thunderstorms, potentially on sunday afternoon . so we do have sunday afternoon. so we do have a met office yellow warnings in place for that. another warm one and where it stays fine and sunny in the east, we could get to 26 or 27. >> looks like things are heating up . boxt boilers sponsors of

gb news. >> welcome to lee anderson's real world. tonight on the show,

i'm joined by vanessa frake. elna's army emma woolf alex armstrong and denis macshane. but first, let's go to the . news. >> very good evening to you from the newsroom . it's just after the newsroom. it's just after 7:00 and leading the news tonight. a man who led an armed robbery during which a police officer was shot dead has today been sentenced to a minimum of 40 years behind bars. 38 year old pc sharon beshenivsky was fatally shot when she interrupted the raid in bradford nearly 20 years ago. 75 year old peeran dita khan, who spent 15 years on the run, was found guilty of murder despite not pulling the trigger himself. he's the last of seven men involved in that robbery to be convicted. retired detective chief superintendent andy brennan described ditta khan as a violent man. >> the reason why he's here at 75 years of age is on the basis