02/13/24 02/13/24 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> we cannot stand by and let this continue. we need a lasting ceasefire now. this war must end. amy: jordanian king abdullah meets with president biden at the white house and calls for a ceasefire in gaza as israel continues to threaten to invade

rafah where over a million palestinians have sought refuge. we will speak to a doctor who has just left gaza. then climate scientist michael mann. a jury has awarded him $1 million after he sued two right-wing critics for defamation. >> i hope this draws a line in the sand. it is one thing to disagree with scientific findings, but it is something else entirely to engage in bad faith ideologically driven attacks on scientists that misrepresent their work, that make false allegations against them simply to serve some political agenda. amy: but first, could indonesia be headed back to military rule? a notorious former general who has been implicated in mass killings in east timor, papua, and aceh could win wednesday's

election after getting backing of indonesia's government. we will speak with longtime investigative journalist allan nairn in jakarta. all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. international pressure is mounting against israel's planned ground invasion of rafah, which now hosts more than a million displaced gazans who were once told the southern area was a safe zone. president biden spoke on monday after meeting with jordan's king abdullah at the white house. pres. biden: the king and i also discussed the situation in rafah . our military operations in rafah , the major military operation in rafah should not proceed without a credible plan for ensuring the safety and support

of more than one million people sheltering there. amy: by quickly corrected himself as saying it was "our operation." biden also said his administration is working on a six-week ceasefire in gaza. cia director william burns is in cairo for more truce talks. despite biden's comments, he has refused to impose any conditions on the billions of dollars the u.s. continues to send to israel. this is national security council spokesperson john kirby being questioned by a reporter. >> to the present -- president ever threatened with israel if they move ahead with the rafah that does not taken a consequence -- >> they have the right to defend themselves against hamas. we will make sure they have the tools and capabilities to do that. amy: israel airstrikes in rafah already killed at least 100 people over night into monday as

the idf carried out a rescue operation to free two hostages. this is a young girl who was injured and lost her father in the israeli strikes. >> we were in the tents, me and my family, when the bullets came at us. my father went to see what was happening and said there were strikes. a strike happened while he was talking. we all fled. my father was martyred well in the car he said, i bear witness with god and die. amy: amnesty international says rafah's population has seen a five-fold increase since the israeli assault started on october 7. in a new report, amnesty is calling for a war crimes investigation into israeli strikes in rafah in december and january that killed nearly 100 civilians, almost half of them children. this comes as palestinian health officials say israeli forces have killed over 12,300 children

in the gaza strip in just over four months. meanwhile, israeli violence in the occupied west bank continues to intensify. at least 22 people, including a child, were arrested in overnight raids in jenin and other areas. there have been over 7000 arrests in the occupied west bank since october 7. detained palestinians say they are being violently attacked in prison. meanwhile, a group of u.n. special rapporteurs says israel's undercover killings of three palestinian men at the ibn sina hospital in jenin last month may amount to extrajudicial killings and violations of international human rights law and international humanitarian law. the u.n. experts said -- "by disguising themselves as seemingly harmless, protected medical personnel and civilians, the israeli forces also prima facie committed the war crime of perfidy." perfidy describes a deception

involving an abuse of good faith. protesters took to the streets around united states monday as fear mounts over an all-out attack in rafah. rallies took place outside the white house in washington, d.c., in los angeles, and other major cities. around activists with sunrise 20 movement were arrested as they occupied biden's wilmington, delaware, campaign headquarters warning he is at risk of losing millions of youth votes in november. here in new york, protesters blocked cars around grand central. activists led by jewish-american groups rallied outside senator chuck schumer's office. earlier in the day, protesters gathered for an emergency protest at union square led by the group within our lifetime. democracy now! was there. >> we cannot sit by idly and watch our people be massacred and we will do whatever it takes to stop it.

we will continue to protest. they shut down our instagram age. the police are starting to be more brutal with their arrests and attacks on the movement to free palestine in an effort to shut us down because public opinion shows, these protests show the people of new york city and the people of united states stand with palestine. amy: the u.s. senate passed a $95 billion military funding package for ukraine, israel, and taiwan in the pre-dawn hours this morning. but the bill's fate remains unclear after house speaker mike johnson dismissed the measure over its failure to include hardline immigration restrictions. this comes after johnson and other republicans rejected an earlier version of the bill which did contain the border crackdown they had demanded. johnson has told republican congressmembers he will call a house vote on a stand-alone funding bill for israel. donald trump has asked the supreme court to intervene and

halt a d.c. appeals court ruling that rejected trump's claims of total immunity for his actions following his 2020 election loss. special counsel jack smith has charged trump on four counts over his efforts to overturn the election. two lower courts have already rejected trump's presidential immunity argument. trump's lawyers are also asking the d.c. court to reconsider his claim with its full panel of judges. in related news, the judge overseeing georgia's election subversion case against donald trump said monday district attorney fani willis could be disqualified over her past romantic relationship with the lead prosecutor on the case. if she benefited financially. a hearing on the matter has been scheduled for thursday. in india, police fired tear gas at thousands of farmers marching toward new delhi tuesday protesting for better working protections and to be paid a higher value for their crops. talks between union leaders and

the indian government failed -- indian police sealed several entry points into new delhi with barricades of barbed wire, cement blocks, and spikes. this is a leader with the punjab farmers' union. >> see how peacefully the farmers are marching and police are dropping tear gas from drones in the sky. amy: in trinidad and tobago, officials declared a national emergency sunday after a massive oil spill, caused by an overturned vessel, blackened several miles of tobago's southern shores covering beaches with thick oil. it's still unclear how much oil had spilled while the government has yet to identify the owner of the largely submerged vessel found off the coast last week. in the democratic republic of the congo, protests broke out monday near u.n. offices and western embassies in the capital kinshasa as anger mounts over the worsening violence and humanitarian crisis in eastern congo. demonstrators burned u.s. and other flags denouncing western nations' support of rwanda, which is accused of backing the

m23 militia and their complicity in the conflict. >> we are claiming our rights. france and the united states are fostering the war are supporting the rebellion. a country like rwanda cannot fight against democratic republic of congo. we are marching. we are not breaking or destroying people's property but the head of the police is sending his officers to chase them away. amy: this comes as thousands of people have been forced to flee their homes as m23 advanced toward goma, a key city in eastern congo. and back here in new york, voters in long island and a small section of queens are casting ballots to fill the open seat left by disgraced republican congressmember george santos. the u.s. house voted to expel santos in december over campaign finance violations and his many lies about his personal and work history. on the ballot is former democratic congressmember tom swazee, who previously held the seat, and is pitching himself as

a centrist. the republican candidate is mazi pilip, nassau county legislator who is actually a registered democrat. she was born in ethiopia and airlifted to israel where she fought in the idf before moving to the u.s. republicans control 219 seats in the u.s. house compared to 212 for democrats. four house seats are currently vacant. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman in new york, joined by democracy now!'s juan gonzález in chicago. hi, juan. juan: hi, amy. welcome to all of our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. amy: indonesia, the scene of two of the 20th century's epic slaughters, may be on the verge of a return to army rule at the hands of its most notorious general. general prabowo subianto, a longtime u.s. protégé implicated

in the country's massacres, once mused about becoming "a fascist dictator" and is now a serious threat to assume the presidency. those are the opening two paragraphs of a new article in the intercept by the award winning journalist allan nairn who has spent decades covering indonesia and the country it occupied for quarter of a century, east timor. he is joining us now from jakarta, the capital of indonesia, ahead of wednesday's election in indonesia. why don't you start off by just laying out the scene, what is about to happen tomorrow and who exactly prabowo is. >> general prabowo is the most notorious massacre general in indonesia, and he is also the general who was closest to the

u.s. as he was carrying out his mass killing's, objections of activists, and systematic tortures. he was also the son-in-law of the former dictator of indonesia . prabowo described himself to me as the american fair-haired boy. he mused about becoming a fascist dictator. he told me indonesia is not ready for democracy. and he described in detail how he received training from the u.s. at fort benning and fort bragg, how when in 1998 this father-in-law was falling and prabowo was in the process of kidnapping activists, in regular consultation with u.s. defense intelligence agencies. prabowo told he reported to the usda at least once a week.

he also described how under a pentagon program known as joint combined exchange and training, general prabowo brought fully armed troops into indonesia on at least 41 occasions. and pentagon documents backup prabowo's account. according to the general and this pentagon documents, while the u.s. troops were in indonesia, as the pentagon put it, prabowo opened the door to them, they started doing reconnaissance and making plans, contingency plans, for possible future u.s. invasion of indonesia. as prabowo put it to me, the invasion contingency. these armed u.s. troops which prabowo brought in to indonesia were lang the groundwork for future u.s. invasion.

if the u.s. chose to do that. this is particularly interesting since prabowo styles himself as he is running for president now as a nationalist. he attacks anyone who opposes him as a foreign lackey when in fact he is the one who was closest to the u.s., who was helping u.s. plan for an invasion, and who in recent years helped to kill a workers rights lawsuit against the american mining giant which is stripping the hills and forests of defect occupied west papua. he is the general, most importantly, who led many of the massacres in east timor after the indonesian army invaded with the green light from president gerald ford and henry kissinger. in one case, in a village, prabowo and his forces killed

hundreds of fleeing civilians. he later was involved in other massacres and directed assassinations of political activists in acha and west papua. he may be on the verge of the presidency. he has tried multiple to a tips but this time he has the backing of the incumbent government. the state apparatus is being put behind him. the army and police are going out and intimidating poor people at the neighborhood level, telling them if they don't vote for prabowo, the authorities will know about it and they will be in trouble. people are being threatened with having their government rations of rice and cooking oil cut off if they don't vote for prabowo.

academics who recently spoke out against this use of state power to push this general into office are now being visited and intimidated by the police. and last wednesday, there was a meeting that included army generals and intelligence officials where they discussed a plan to, if necessary, do voter fraud to push general prabowo over the 50% threshold he will need to win in tomorrow's election. it is a three candidate election. if he gets over the 50% threshold and get a sufficient number of votes in the provinces outside java, he will automatically become the president-elect. the plane discussed at that meeting among the senior military intelligence officials was there was an existing claim to do fraud if necessary to push the general over that threshold

and oppose him on indonesia as their new president. juan: i wanted to ask you, you mentioned the incumbent president is backing prabowo. how do you explain this change since he defeated the general in two previous elections and once talked about actually wanting to put on trial for war crimes. >> it is a very important question stop it has a lot of indonesians outraged. prabowo whenprabowo was defeated in 2014, the incumbent president had the support of many massacre survivors and human rights activists and they did -- the government did talk about putting general prabowo and other generals on trial for war crimes. i've been calling for that for years and the u.s. sponsors to

be tried for war crimes. i met with some of his advisors and discuss this. what they kept saying was, yes, but it will take time. this is very dangerous, we have to go slowly but they said that was the direction they were moving in. however, they never got there. they never even attempted to stage the trials. and then in 2019 after general prabowo was defeated for the second time, prabowo staged the latest of his coup attempts by backing street riots that involved mass looting and burning in jakarta. it was at that time president joko said enough, and could not take it anymore. according to intermediaries both sides ,joko decided to bring prabowo into the tent in the hope if he brought him inside

the government, that would put an end to the coup threats in the street rights and in fact it did. it brought -- he brought prabowo and made him minister of the two then grew close. their interests coincide. the president became increasingly wealthy. prabowo that the indonesian military policy of killing civilians in occupied west papua where there is strong sentiment for independence. and this time around when this next round of elections was coming up, the incumbent civilian president joko decided he wanted to try to extend his own term even though there is a term limit as in the united states. he lifted options for maybe getting a third term or maybe postponing the elections, but he was not able to pull those off. so he made a deal with general prabowo, who is responsible for

the slaughter of thousands of civilians across indonesia and occupied east timor. president joko helped install him as president and let his own son to general prabowo as his vice presidential running mate. and he did that even though the scent of the president is too young to be vice president under indonesian law. there is an age limit. he is only 36. you have to be a minimum age of 40. but he strong-armed that to the supreme court where the president's other law was the chief justice. strong-armed through the electoral commission. official state bodies had already ruled those two actions were unethical but it doesn't matter. the current ticket is general prabowo and the president's underaged son. the whole state apparatus is being mobilized on the one hand

to intimidate and threaten the poor with trouble and the cut off of their food and cooking oil if they don't vote for prabowo, and on the other hand counting a very disgusting public relations campaign which portrays this notorious general as a fat, adorable cartoon character who in videos and ads can be seen dancing. to people who are not familiar with the history of the massacres, two of the worst slaughters of the 20th century, the u.s.-backed massacre when the army first seized power in 1965 of anywhere from 400,002 and billion civilians, and the murder of a third of the population invading the indonesian army in timor with u.s. weapons and backing. and not familiar with prabowo's role in that, to those people --

these matters are not discussed in schools or in the state media . the ads have some impact most of combined with the intimidation makes it a strong threat to take power in the election. juan: specifically you mentioned how prabowo has sought to rebrand himself. what of the youth of indonesia who now make up 52% of the electorate, those under 40 -- how have they been suckered into this narrative? amy: we have to go to a break because it looks like the ifp dropped. we will come back to speak with him. allan nairn, longtime investigative journalist who has been covering indonesia for decades. he is speaking to us from jakarta, indonesia. he has written a piece in the

intercept headlined "indonesia state apparatus is preparing to throw election to a notorious massacre general." we will be back with him in a minute. ♪ [music break]

amy: they signed on to artist for ceasefire. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we continue our conversation with longtime investigative journalist allan nairn who has covered indonesia and indonesian occupied east timor for decades. his peace in the intercept, "indonesia state apparatus is preparing to throw election to a notorious massacre general." juan: before we lost you, i was asking you, you had mentioned prabowo's attempts to rebrand himself. i asked about the young voters

of indonesia who make up about 52% of the electorate. how have they bought into this narrative? what does it say about a democratic election that a general with this kind of a record is likely to be victorious? >> we don't yet know if he is likely, but he is a strong threat to win because the muscle of the state apparatus is behind him. part of the reason, to some extent, they can get away with that because textbooks and the press are not honest about how the army originally came to power with u.s.-backed slaughter in 1965 of anywhere of 400,000 to a million civilians and the invasion of east timor with u.s. greenlighting weapons, killing

one third of the population. which was the most intensive slaughter since the nazis. they are definitely not familiar with general prabowo's role in timor and the aceh assassinations and terrorizing civilians in west papua. it is a two-pronged approach they're using. basically, pressuring and coercing the poor with threats to their well-being because many poor people know they live in the army and police and threats to their food. and for the middle and upper-class, especially the young people, this pr campaign portrays the general as a cuddly cartoon character. not a fit would be possible without the backing of the civilian president who passively

vowed to prabowo after prabowo's 2019 ultimate coup attempt. by violence, prabowo brought himself inside the government. and now that government is preparing to attempt, if necessary through fraud, to install him and give him the ultimate power. he is talking about modifying the way the presidency works, returning to an old draft of the state constitution which would make him a virtual dictator if you wants to be. amy: before we wrap up, a couple of quick questions. prabowo is the former son-in-law of the longtime authoritarian leader suharto, responsible for the invasion of east timor. we survived the massacre were indonesian soldiers armed, trained, financed by the united states open fire, killing more than 270 of them.

they beat you up, fracturing or skull. talk about how prabowo's involvement in timor, killings in indonesia as well, and then his supporting of coups led him to where he is today. i was amazed he was willing to grant you an interview years ago where he talked about becoming a fascist dictator. and where he stands on everything from isis to what is happening today in gaza. after all, indonesia has the largest muslim population in the world. >> well, i met with him twice in 2001. i actually was meeting with him because i was investigating two particular murders of civilians. i wanted to find out what he

knew about them. i think possibly he enjoyed speaking to an adversary. but regarding the santa cruz massacre in timor that we survived, prabowo said it was an imbecilic operation and objected to it not because of the hundreds of to marie's the army slaughtered, but because they did it in front of us. they did it in front of us and we survived and were able to reported it to the outside world , others were able to do the same. we were able to get the u.s. congress over time through grassroots actions in the united states to cut off for a while the u.s. arms supply which helped to lead to suharta's downfall. suharta said, that is imbecilic. you don't do it in front of outside witnesses. you do it in an isolated rural

village where no one will ever know about it. prabowo was able to stage his series of coup attempts over the years. in part because he was -- he had the support of the indonesian army, which was backed by the united states. he in particular was the americans favorite. he described himself as the americans fair-haired boy. annie had the support -- and he had the support of the indonesian oligarchy as well. he certainly has their backing in the selection. and with regard to israel, prabowo, after he became defense minister, made a special effort to draw indonesia closer to israel. the two countries do not have diplomatic relations. the indonesian population now is outraged by the slaughter, the genocide that israel is

conducting in gaza. but prabowo was attempting to bring israel closer to indonesia. there was already a covert relationship with israeli intelligence and the israeli military were intelligence equipment and training was given. and prabowo started working with trump and later biden to attempt to bring that to to hundreds together -- the two countries together, similar to the abraham accords. prabowo it with senior israeli security adviser. with this came out, he was forced to retreat from this policy. at this moment, the indonesian government and prabowo are posing as if they oppose what israel is doing. but if he becomes president, there's a good chance that those

relations will grow even closer and perhaps be formalized. amy: the former supreme court chief justice, retired now, tweeted out that you should be captured as you give out this information. are you concerned about your own safety? >i think we just lost our connection. allan nairn, longtime investigative journalist, has been covering indonesia and occupy east timor for decades. we will link to his new piece in the intercept "indonesia state , apparatus is preparing to throw election to a notorious massacre general." the election is wednesday, february 14. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. we turn now to gaza as israel threatens to launch a ground invasion of rafah, where over a

million displaced palestinians have sought refuge. on monday, president biden hosted king abdullah of jordan at the white house. during public remarks, biden initially described israel's operation in rafah as "our operation." pres. biden: yesterday our military operation in rafah, major military operation in rafah should not proceed without a predicable plan -- credible plan for ensuring the safety and support more than one million people sheltering their. amy: jordan's king abdulla condemned israel's plan to attack rafah. he called for cease fire and the creation of a palestinian state. >> we cannot afford an israeli attack on rafah. it is certain to produce another humanitarian catastrophe. the situation is already unbearable for over a million people who have been pushed to rafah since the war started. we cannot stand by and let this continue. we need a lasting ceasefire now.

this war must end. seven decades have proven beyond doubt that there could be no peace without a political horizon. military installations are not the answer. they can never bring peace. civilians on both sides continue to pay for this protracted conflict with their lives. amy: we go now to toronto where we are joined by dr. yasser khan. he is a canadian ophthalmologist and eye surgeon who recently returned from a humanitarian surgical mission at the european hospital in khan yunis in gaza. dr. khan, welcome to democracy now! if you can describe what you saw in khan younis, the level of the injuries, how crowded the european hospital was, the threats people were facing. >> thank you for having me.

i look at the impending invasion of rafah in the attacks on rafah and i know what is going to happen. i know the casualties and how much worse it is going to get. when i was in khan younis a few weeks ago, -- i have been to over 40 countries doing humanitarian work from africa, asia, south america. what i saw in khan younis were the most horrific scenes in my entire life. i hope i never see them again. the bombings were going on every few hours at that point in time. the israeli forces were about a kilometer away. the mass casualties kept coming in. a majority of the patients i treated were children come anywhere from two years old to 17. i saw horrific eye and facial injuries i have never seen before. eyes shattered in two

six-year-olds with shrapnel that i had to take out. eyes with shrapnel stuck inside. facial injuries. i saw orthopedic injuries with limbs dangling. i saw abdominal injuries that were horrific. it was mass chaos. there were children on the floor unattended to with head trauma. people suturing patients without anesthesia on the ground. it was mass chaos and horrific scenes. i know that with the bombings going on in rafah and scenes of children hanging exploded, half their bodies cut off and hanging on a wall because they have been exploded -- i mean, those are going on now. i know what my colleagues are going through right now in rafah and gaza, basically. juan: doctor, you are working

shifts of 12, 13 hour days. can you talk about the conditions of the medical staff and the doctor she worked alongside? where did you sleep? were you able to eat? talk about those conditions you faced. >> the doctors were amazing. the palestinian doctors were amazing. their dedication and there will to resist dying and staying alive was amazing. they were talented. but they have nothing. there are no antibiotics or painkillers. the last day i was leaving we ran out of morphine. the whole european gaza hospital at the time -- everything i'm saying -- everything i saw is much worse now. basically, it was overcrowded. 300% overcapacity. patients and bodies lying all over the hospital floor inside and outside. orthopedic devices coming from their legs or their arms.

they were getting infected. they were in pain. they are on the conditions are not narrow. if they survived tatian the first time, the infection would get them -- amputation the first time come the infection would get them. more than 60% i saw were children. they have no fat on them. they are starving. israel has had a food blockade since the war on gaza started. they are coming in and it was just -- we did not have enough supplies, and gauze, antibiotics, instruments to deal with the mass trauma. amy: dr. khan, this is democratic senator chris van hollen speaking ahead of a vote on the $95 billion aid package to israel, ukraine, and taiwan. >> had a president, i want that

to sink in. kids in gaza are now dying from the deliberate withholding of food. in addition to the horror of that news, one other thing is true, that is a war crime. it is a textbook war crime. and that makes those who orchestrate it were criminals. amy: that is democratic senator chris van hollen on the floor of the u.s. senate. dr. khan, you're talking about the thinness of the children, the whole population. >> maybe, -- an, from what i saw what i experienced when i was on the ground speaking to officials, speaking to the doctors and this whole -- one of the whole aspects of this war in gaza, the genocidal intent of israeli politicians, israeli

army has been clear. what is bizarre, they have openly called for epidemics. as a health care professional, the attack on the health care system has been unprecedented. the viciousness of its coveted killing machine that israel has unleashed on the health care system is unprecedented. hospitals have been bombed. when doctors had tried to repopulate them, there has been sniper fire with drones preventing them from going in. they have attacked the sewage system, the water system so the sewage mixes with the drinking water. you get diarrheal diseases, bacterial diseases, cholera, hepatitis a. they are living in cramped spaces. they have killed over 300 or 400 health care workers.

doctors, nurses, paramedics have been bombed. this has been a systematic sort of -- by destroying the health care system, you're contributing to the genocide. what is going on is there are 10,000 to 15,000 bodies that are decomposing. it is rainy season in gaza. all of the rainwater mixes with the decomposing bodies and that bacteria mixes with the drinking water supply and you get further disease. they have kidnapped about 45 doctors that have been specifically targeted. specifically specialists like the one to follow just in the gaza strip was targeted. -- nephrologist in the gaza strip was targeted. the whole thing is the bombings are not going to get you then disease will surely get you.

they are all malnourished. if you are malnourished, your immune system is weaker and you're more susceptible disease but there are no antibiotics. the amount of amputations i saw in children, for example, both arms -- one arm, one leg, both eyes ap tainted out of their sockets. it is amazing. it takes -- if this was done properly in a non--war scenario, a child would need about nine to 12 surgeries by the time they are an adult for prosthetic da fitting and whatnot. in this war situation, they have not been done properly because you have to rush it but he was going to take care of these children. mostly children. their parents are gone.

their uncles are dead. their grandfathers and grandmothers are dead. the israeli killing machine has been vicious. they have used drones. when i was there, i was speaking to doctors and they told me they have used drones like the hellfire drone that is an explosive drone. it fires off these discs once it explodes. these are unique and cause unique amputations. most amputations occurred the week point like the elbow or the knee. but they cause mid thigh or mid arm amputations which are more complicated. what i believe is they're using weapons on the survey population that have never been used before. from what i heard, based on my experience, israel has a very strong defense industry.

weapons that are battle tested. if we could put a new label -- a label to a new weapon that increases the value of it. they are experimenting from what i heard and saw. in a civilian-dense population. it is been vicious boast of really vicious. amy: dr. yasser khan, thank you for being with us, canadian ophthalmologist and eyes surgeon based in toronto, canada. just recently returned from a humanitarian surgical mission at the european hospital in khan yunis in gaza. when we come back, we will be joined by climate scientist michael mann, just awarded $1 million in a defamation lawsuit against two right-wing critics. ♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now! i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. we turn now to the climate crisis. dozens were arrested monday outside of president biden's campaign headquarters in delaware as members of the sunrise movement called on him to declare a climate emergency. some held signs that read "fund climate not genocide." this comes as world renown climate scientist michael mann has been awarded more than $1 million in a defamation lawsuit settled last week.

mann initially filed the case in 2012 against two right-wing critics -- rand simberg, with the competitive enterprise institute said -- sandusky is the convicted child molester and former football coach at penn state university where mann was a professor at the time. dr. mann says he hopes the verdict in the case makes it clear that falsely attacking climate scientists is not protected speech. he is joining us out from philadelphia where he is the presidential distinguished professor of earth & environmental science at the university of pennsylvania. he knew explain what just

happened in this major victory being awarded, more than $1 billion by washington, d.c., jury after pursuing these -- suing these two right-wing climate deniers? >> it is great to be with you. as you quoted me before, this is a line in the sand. it is one thing to disagree with the findings of scientists, people have the right to do that. it is one thing to criticize scientists within the scientific community. good faith criticisms, skepticism is a good thing, but what is not allowed, what you can't do, is make false allegations about scientists in an effort to promote an agenda -- in this case, of climate change denialism. this is something we have encountered for decades, efforts by the fossil fuel industry and their hired guns to attack an attempt to discredit scientists.

to prevent meaningful action on climate. this is a line in the sand and i think it goes beyond climate science. i think it also applies to other areas, public health science. today we see attacks on public health scientists like anthony county, peter hotel is. that is not protected speech. you can't engage in defamatory attacks on scientists. i like to think this will create some space that scientists will feel more comfortable in leaving the laboratory and speaking to the public and policymakers about their science and the implications of their science, knowing are some basic protections. juan: i wanted to ask you come in your conversations with fellow scientists, what is the

mood or the sense of how these attacks are affecting their ability to do their work? >> especially young scientists, what i fear is they see these visible attacks, these tendencies ands -- denunciations other fellow scientists in the public sphere, and that chills the public discourse. it makes them basically afraid to speak out and speak up. i do think these attacks have had a chilling effect. and that was their intended impact. of course, the climate change disinformation machine has used vilification as a way to intimidate scientists, to sort of, you know, create fear that they will be attacked if they

speak out about the implications of their science. that has been going on for far too long. it has now infected our entire body politic were today misinformation and disinformation runs rampant. when it comes to the great challenges we face, whether it be climate change or the threat of pandemics like covid-19, it is essential that scientists feel free to speak to the public and to policymakers about these mounting threats. and i hope, once again, that this decision will create a little more space now for my fellow scientists to do that. amy: do you see your case setting precedent for political leaders who attack -- to attack climate science? how badly were you injured? this horror of comparing you to this known molester destroyed so many young lives at penn state? >> well, you know, i was

certainly -- there was an emotional toll that it took on me for certain. it did not prevent me from speaking out about the climate crisis. i have embraced that opportunity. my recent book "our fragile moment" is my latest attempt to communicate the threats of climate change the public. i have been able to do that stop but at the same time, it has taken emotional toll. once again, sort of created this chilling effect where other scientists see me attacked in this way, they probably have backed off and have shied away from the spotlight. we all pay the price when scientists don't feel empowered to speak out about the. . implications of their science amy: i want to bring in mark hertsgaard, executive director of climate now.

his new piece "it's the 2024 election season. where's the climate story?" lay out what you're calling for. >> i have to say the comments that michael mann is making right now about how the climate denialism is intimidated scientists to not speaking, that has happened exactly the same way within our profession of the news media. for too many years, many of our colleagues in the media have been intimidated by the right-wing attacks that have come to think, well, i don't really understand climate science, i guess i better not talk about it. you see that now in the election, 2024 election. which is there is a lot of coverage, obviously, about the campaign, especially in the u.s. , at the presidential level but very little connection of the fact these elections are

essentially going to shape humanities climate future. not just in the u.s.. about half the worlds population is entitled to vote in very selections around the world. we just heard allan nairn's report of indonesia. india, u.s. and south africa, mexico. these elections are going to decide which governments are in power or not over this next critical five-year period when we absolutely have got to bend the climate pollution trajectory down if we're going to preserve a livable planet. these elections could not be more important from a climate perspective and yet a lot of the media is still not making that connection. i can tell you part of the reason is a fear on their part -- i just had this conversation the other day with a prominent journalist. fear we will look partisan if we point out, for example, in the u.s., what of the major political parties is still essentially denying climate

change. that is republicans, of course, and president trump who has pledged to "drill, baby, drill" if you were to return to the white house. it is not our job as journalists to censor ourselves because one party or candidate decides to deny climate sites. we owe it to the public to report it without fear or favor. juan: in terms of how the democratic party has been handling the issue of climate change during this election season -- there couldn't have more stark difference between the two candidates in terms of climate science, at least in terms of their acknowledgment of the crisis we are facing. but is the democratic party really pushing for it? as strongly as it could on this issue? >> i think it is hard to know. because so much of what we in the public hear about from the

democratic party or the white house is filtered through the prism of the news media. for example, the inflation reduction act. certainly, the biggest climate legislation ever passed probably in the world and passed, by the way, by democratic president through a congress that still has a lot of republican control in it. the white house has been frustrated the general public does not know about that in the white house has tried and tried it says to put biden on the road to talk about this. it is not getting the kind of press coverage -- at least i would've expected. you are right there is a huge contrast between the democratic and republican approach to this. is biden's climate record perfect? far from it. the u.s. is still the biggest boiling gas producer in the world. he great let the oil project in alaska but put a pause on liquid

natural gas export facilities across the gulf coast. as voters, i think it is important for people who are out there as citizens to remember, to quote my colleague, "when you're thinking about your vote, your vote is not a valentine. it is a chess move." you don't have to prove everything a certain candidate does in order to say, i am still going to vote. if you care about climate, vote. if you care about fairness, vote. if you care about peace, vote. amy: alexandria ocasio-cortez mart five-year anniversary of the introduction of the green new deal. >> we're going to go with to go to every single frontline community and ensure they are not left behind. we are going to create millions of unionized jobs. install solar, commit to

geothermal. we're going to transition this country to clean and renewable energy and create a sustainable working-class in the process of doing that. amy: mark hertsgaard, that is aoc celebrating now, five years since green new deal was introduced. >> and that green new deal is what gave us the inflation reduction act. somewhat trimmed down from the original, but that is where elections are important. aoc ran, took on a moderate democrat who everybody said was unbeatable. she beat him and injected all of this to energy into the political discourse like the green new deal. i think that is why we in the press have to pay much more attention to the climate issue in 2024. amy: as the northeast is shut down by what is expected to be a monster storm that just recently started snowing here in the

city. schools are close from mark hertsgaard here to boston. mark hertsgaard, covering climate now. we will link to your new article "it's the 2024 election season. where's the climate story?" thank you so much to michael mann, professor of earth & environmental science at the