03/01/24 03/01/24 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! pres. biden: here is what i would say to mr. trump, instead of telling members of congress to block legislation, join me for i will join you in telling the congress to pass this bill. we can do it together.

amy: president biden calls on donald trump to join him in a bipartisan bill to further militarize the u.s.-mexico border and crack down on migrants in -- and asylum-seekers. we will speak to the leading immigrant rights advocate. we look at an intercept exposé of a controversial "new york times" article. >> there is no news organization in the world with greater influence, particularly over the u.s. government and american public opinion, that "the new york times." to publish a story the middle of a war that makes incendiary allegations, you have to have that knelt down tight because if you get something wrong, it can take lives. in this case, we see a deeply flawed peacemaking extremely incendiary allegations. amy: we will speak with reporters jeremy scahill and ryan grim. all that and more, coming up.

welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. in gaza, the official death toll has topped 30,200 as israeli forces continue their daily attacks one day after israeli soldiers fired on people waiting for aid in northern gaza, killing at least 104 people. harrowing survivor accounts have emerged in the wake of the massacre. >> we would to get food and flour and they started shooting at us. we do ourselves into the streets. eventually, people brought as here. there are martyrs lying around. no one is looking for them. >> we do not want to live on the blood of our children. if our children will be harmed in exchange for aid, we do not

what a. amy: the health ministry announced at least another four children have died of starvation and dehydration. on capitol hill, california commerce member ro khanna grilled defense secretary lloyd austin over ongoing u.s. support for israel in light of thursday's massacre. >> if israel ever stops american paid aid from getting into gaza, will you commit and not sending future arms sales? >> again, that is not my decision. close we did some consequences when another countries defying you, defined the national, the president, national security memorandum 20. there has to be some consequence. amy: secretary austin refused to say the u.s. would ever hold israel accountable for killing palestinians and violating international law. during questioning, austin also

said over 25,000 palestinian women and children have been killed by israel since october 7. though that figure is likely close to the true death toll, the pentagon was later forced to walk back austin's statement, claiming he was referring to the total death toll not just women and children. in labor news, washington state's largest union, the united food and commercial workers, endorsed a primary vote for "uncommitted" rather than president biden in the march 12 primary, citing a need to "end u.s. funding toward this reckless war." yemen's houthi movement warned it's planning surprise military operations in the red sea against israeli, u.s., and other targets over the assault on gaza. meanwhile, lebanon's caretaker prime minister najib mikati said a ceasefire in gaza would trigger negotiations to halt fighting between hezbollah and israeli forces. >> we are saying god willing if

you're able to reach a cessation of military activities in gaza that i believe we will have weeks packed with the negotiations so we can reach what i have always called a long-term stability in the south of lebanon. amy: in new jersey, residents of teaneck say they will organize public protests if the keter torah synagogue goes ahead with a plan to host a march 10 real estate event selling housing units in illegal west bank settlements. this is local activist rich siegel. >> if we allow this sale to go through, we are enabling a local synagogue to violate both domestic antidiscrimination laws and international law. there are other reasons we should not allow it, ok? there is a genocide going on right now. amy: in texas, president biden and former president trump traveled to the u.s.-mexico

border in competing visits to thursday tout their harsh immigration and border policies. trump visited eagle pass with republican texas governor greg abbott, while biden spoke from brownsville where he appealed to trump to work together to lobby congress on a border deal. pres. biden: here's what i would say to mr. trump. instead of telling members of congress to block this legislation, join me or i will join you in telling the congress to pass this bipartisan bill. we can do it together. you and i know it is the toughest, most effective border security bill this country has ever seen. amy: their visit came on the same day a federal judge temporarily blocked a sweeping new texas law that would have allowed police to arrest anyone suspected of entering the united states without authorization. sb4 was set to go into effect

next week. the inter-american commission on human rights held a special hearing thursday on climate change-fueled displacement. it's part of an effort to have the organization formally recognize forced migration due to the climate crisis and establish legal protections for climate refugees and internally displaced people. higinio alberto ramírez from honduras is a survivor of last year's deadly fire at a migrant jail in ciudad juárez, mexico, which killed 43 people. he was trying to make his way to the u.s. after he lost his livelihood when the shrimp farm where he worked was destroyed due to rising sea levels. this is part of his testimony voiced over by an interpreter. >> let us not be looked at as saying, oh, god, here comes more immigrants, block the border. we have human rights. we simply are hoping for the chance of a better life. that is all we want.

i can only hope the government would get together and understand the situation and somehow find some decent, some humane way to address the problem. amy: in the texas panhandle, at least two people have been killed as the smokehouse creek fire continues to rage. on thursday, it merged with another wildfire, becoming the largest ever fire in texas history and the second largest in u.s. history. the flames have engulfed over 1 million acres, razing entire neighborhoods to the ground. it is just 5% contained. the climate crisis is making wildfires more frequent and more devastating. greenpeace said, "as the largest oil driller and producer in the united states, oil companies in texas are literally fueling the flames on their doorstep." in pakistan, the national

assembly swore in newly elected members of parliament thursday amid protests by lawmakers from the party of ousted and jailed former prime minister imran khan. khan's supporters got up and shouted "vote-thief!" as shehbaz sharif entered the chamber with his brother nawaz sharif. both men are also former prime ministers. shehbaz sharif is expected to form a new government after none of the major parties won a majority of parliamentary seats in february's election. supporters of imran khan have accused the military of election tampering. here in the united states, over 30 congressmembers sent an open letter to president biden asking him to withhold u.s. recognition of the new pakistani government until a "thorough, transparent, and credible investigation of election interference has been conducted." in iran, polls have opened in the first elections since an anti-government uprising rocked the country in 2022 following

the death of mahsa amini while in police custody. voters are casting ballots for 290 parliamentary seats and 88 seats on the assembly of experts, which appoints the supreme leader of iran. but turnout is expected to be low amid calls for a boycott and voter disenchantment. jack teixeira, a member of the massachusetts air national guard, is expected to plead guilty on charges of leaking a series of highly classified pentagon intelligence documents to a group of gamers on the messaging app discord. he was indicted last year under the espionage act and has been jailed since april 2023. the 22-year-old is scheduled for a monday hearing in boston to change his plea. in media news, "the intercept," raw story, and alternet have sued openai and microsoft accusing their generative

artificial intelligence products of copyright violations. the outlets say their copyrighted content was plagiarized and used to develop and operate the popular ai tool chatgpt. raw story and alternet ceo john byrne said in a statement -- "it's important to democracy that a diverse array of news sites continue to thrive. openai's violations, if not checked, will further decimate the news industry, and with it, the critical news reporters who affect positive change." in ghana, rights groups are sounding the alarm as lawmakers passed a new bill targeting lgbtq+ communities. it includes prison sentences of up to three years for anyone convicted of identifying as lgbtq+, up to 10 years for advocacy campaigns aimed at children, and a maximum five-year sentence for establishing or funding an

lgbtq+ group. same-sex intercourse is already banned in ghana. president nana akufo-addo has said he would sign the measure into law if the majority of the population supported it. and in moscow, thousands of mourners gathered outside a church for alexei navalny's funeral amid heavy police presence. a number of attendees were arrested hours before the funeral started, but mourners say it was important for them to be there. >> i could not not, because i think i have to get my last respect to this man. >> were you afraid? >> we were very afraid. we arrived early and were standing here for a long time. now i realize we need to do this and speak up. amy: hundreds of people have been arrested for publicly mourning navalny in the two weeks since his death in an

arctic prison. the u.s., rights groups, and other have blamed president putin directly for his death. among those spotted at the funeral were recently kremlin disqualified anti-war candidate boris nadezhdin and prominent putin critic and former mayor of yekaterinburg yevgeny roizman, as well as u.s., french, and german diplomats. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we begin today's show in texas, where the two leading presidential candidates visited the u.s.-mexico border thursday as many voters say immigration continues to be a key issue. president biden was joined on his trip to brownsville by homeland security secretary alejandro mayorkas, who was recently impeached by the house republicans over his handling of the border and immigration. biden is reportedly considering a sweeping executive order to deny migrants the right to request asylum if they enter

through unofficial ports of entry. the same authority was invoked by the trump administration. meanwhile, biden called on trump to back a bipartisan bill before congress to further militarize the u.s.-mexico border and crack down on asylum seekers and migrants. pres. biden: here is what i would say to mr. trump. instead of telling members of congress to block this legislation, join me or i will join you in telling the congress to pass this bipartisan border security bill. we can do it together. amy: biden's visit came the same day former president donald trump visited the texas border town of eagle pass. trump claimed the border was safer when he was in office and used the term "invasion" to refer to asylum seekers forced to flee their home countries and arriving in the southern border. he also touted fake news about crime rates by undocumented immigrants and asylum seekers

that are not backed by any evidence or data. pres. trump: now the united states is being overrun by the biden migrant crime, the new form of vicious violation to our country. migrant crime. we call it biden migrant crime. every time you hear the term migrant crime, you know that comes from. crooked joe. there are so many stories to tell. amy: this comes as a federal judge there's a temporarily blocked a new texas law set to go into effect that would give police the power to arrest migrants they suspect of entering the u.s. without authorization. for more, we are joined in el paso, texas, by marisa limón garza, executive director of las americas immigrant advocacy center, one of the groups challenging the texas law sb4. she wrote an open letter to

eagle pass and brownsville ahead of trump's and biden's visit that said in part -- "the circus is coming to town. like you, we've become the proscenium, or stage, for all host of political theater focused on spectacle, sound bites, and media clickbait." marisa limón garza, welcome back to democracy now! can you talk about the significance of these dueling trips and president biden asking trump to join him or said he would join trump in supporting increasingly harsh legislation around the border? >> thank you for having me. it is not lost this is a moment where clearly texas has become a battleground for the soul of this nation. texas holds the largest land border with mexico, so it is clear both presidents and governors alike are very interested in what happens at

the southern border. it is pathetic, frankly, to think the far right has insatiable thirst. they are insatiable and no amount of red meat in the form of borderline communities, people who move, newcomers, neighbors alike who have been here for decades, will ever be enough tribute to this particular political reality. knowing that, it is incredibly painful both of these leaders used our community's as backdrops with incredibly dangerous rhetoric. texas has very lacks gun laws. we already know what happens you mix rhetoric with xenophobia come access to semi automatic rifles. we know in el paso, uvalde,

allen. it is painful but not surprising. amy: can you talk about what you understand president biden's plans are? immigration is emerging as one of the top issues, if not the top issue, in a number of states primaries around the country. now there is word president biden, if he cannot get the legislation passed in congress, will issue executive orders. much closer, more in line with what trump did. can you talk about what these might be and your concerns and if you for the democratic administration of joe biden's hearing what immigrant rights activists on the ground are saying? >> immigration has been a political kryptonite for quite some time going back basically until 9/11.

that is when we saw a real ship in how we respond to this idea of the united states and have people on the move can or cannot access territory and protection on u.s. soil. we know asylum is a completely legal and recognized right, something our congress is committed to and yet this administration and in the past through policy and practice and law, the ways we actually live up to those values. it is disappointing. we were part of conversations with the biden administration when they were transitioning into office. frankly, surviving the horrors the trump administration, knowing our community was the laboratory for so much injustice , of zero-tolerance, remain a mexico -- all of these laws and practices designed to keep

people out -- to say i know we now have a unified force. it doesn't matter which party is taking on this issue. ultimately, they are against people on the move. they are against people of color, people of the global south, people that are part of the lgbtq+ community, unaccompanied children. people living the reality of the united states intervention in foreign policy, the results of the climate crisis -- which is real and causing people to flee. in the most ironic, the fact it is not just brown folks from central america and south america here at the southern border. we see people from africa, europe. the fact we are willing to invest in foreign wars, proxy wars, and think it won't cause

more global migration is laughable. it makes me question, what is the benefit? it is clear, money and power. it is amazing how much money is made on the backs of those on the move and how much power can be wielded and upheld. incredibly disappointing and sobering to know it does not matter which party. we may be at the table -- amy: i want to go to secretary mayorkas. >> you heard from dhs leadership about how resource-starved we continue to be. only congress can address our desperate need for more border patrol agents, field operations officers, immigration enforcement agents and officers, asylum officers, immigration judges, support personnel, facilities, and technology. we are removing and returning historic numbers of migrants who

entered illegally and failed to qualify for relief. just since mid may, we have removed or returned more such migrants than any fiscal year since 2015. amy: last month the house republicans voted to impeach mayorkas, making him the first sitting cabinet member ever to be impeached. republicans accusing him of failing to uphold immigration laws at the u.s.-mexico border. if you can respond to what he said and also trump repeating factually inaccurate lies -- just to clarify what factually inaccurate means. when he talked about the country being overrun by biden migrant crime, new form of vicious violation of this country, the fact my great crime statistics -- migrant crime so since six are so much lower than crime

statistics in the united states everyday american citizens. >> simply put, the american public, they are just being racist. there is no other way to describe it and the language coming out of the secretary's mouth is one of cruelty. the record shows more drones, more wire, more buoys, more technology is only causing more harm and more deaths. 2023 was the most deadly on record for migrants in our area. that is because we are so rigid in the way we are responsive to human beings, real humanitarian reality at the southern border.

no, it is racist and it is against human rights. people have a right to migrate justice much as they have a right to -- we believe people have a right -- the way people are talking about these fellow human is horrific. a let me ask you about the significance of the texas court just blocking sb4. for people who don't know what sb4 is, explain. >> in the state of texas every two years our legislature meet to pass laws and usually have a regular session and this past year 2023 we had four special sessions with governor abbott and his cronies to push along legislation they deemed

appropriate. senate bill 4 that we are in active litigation against the state along with the el paso county, american gateways of the aclu, is the result of this effort to control the border through violence and through harm. this racial profiling law, again, racist and actually goes against many other real texas value, is designed to ask any person with probable cause if they entered into the united states from mexico at an official port of entry where texas holds a border. and the law that representatives crafted and i testified against in the house hearing, is designed to impact the entire state. this is folks in the panhandle

who are living climate change right now, the horrific wildfire. houston, international global city. and it looks like meatpacking towns and college towns and rural communities all across the state post of the second largest in the country based on just geography. in the law is designed to affect anyone regardless of class, status, education level, language, an attack on brown and black bodies and designed to make us fearful, quiet, make us feel -- amy: and it won't go int that next week? >> god willing, it won't. we are incredibly thrilled this judge has, in line with what we're fighting for, so we know this battle -- we're still in the longer war, but we are excited. amy: i wanted to ask about what is happening in new york.

new york city mayor eric adams spoke out in favor of modifying new york's sanctuary laws to facilitate the deportation of immigrants. the sanctuary laws date back to the 1980's, prohibiting agencies from collaborating with federal immigration authorities. can you explain the significance of what he is proposing? >> it is terrible. we have better solutions. we are partnering with our counterparts in san diego and brownsville to make sure people are able to apply for work authorizations while at the southern border and leave with the application of doubt the authorization to go to cities like new york city and begin legally working and adding to the local economy almost immediately. that would reduce the burden on any social safety net and help

people on the move wide, the ability to have resources to protect their families and loved ones. amy: we want to thank you for being with us. marisa limón garza is the executive director of las americas immigrant advocacy center. when we come back, we look at an intercept exposé of a controversial new york times article alleging trump weaponized sexual violence on october 7. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. "the new york times" is reportedly conducting an internal investigation to identify the source behind leaked information about its coverage of israel and gaza. according to "vanity fair," the internal investigation follows a report in "the intercept" about "the times" shelving an episode of its podcast "the daily" over

doubts regarding the accuracy of a highly controversial blockbuster "new york times" article published in december alleging hamas members committed widespread sexual violence on october 7. "vanity fair" reports that in recent weeks, management of "the new york times" have questioned at least two dozen staffers, including producers of "the daily," in an attempt to understand how internal details about the podcast's editorial process got out. democracy now! asked "the new york times" about the internal investigation. the paper's international editor phil pan said in a statement -- "we aren't going to comment on internal matters. i can tell you that the work of our newsroom requires trust and collaboration, and we expect all of our colleagues to adhere to these values." "the new york times" article at the center of the controversy, was published on december 28.

it was headlined "'screams without words': how hamas weaponized sexual violence on october 7." in it, "the times" reported they had found evidence of systematic sexual violence orchestrated by hamas and that their two-month investigation "uncovered painful new details, establishing that the attacks against women were not isolated events but part of a broader pattern of gender-based violence on october 7." however, not long after the highly publicized article was published, major discrepancies began to emerge, including public comments from the family of a major subject of the article, contradictory claims from a key witness, and criticisms over a lack of solid evidence in the overall investigation. then news emerged last week that one of the three authors of "the new york times" piece named anat

schwartz had liked multiple posts on social media advocating for violence against palestinians, including one that called for turning gaza into a slaughterhouse. anat schwartz is an israeli filmmaker who had no prior reporting experience before she was assigned to by "the times" to work on the major investigation along with her relative adam sella and veteran "times" reporter jeffrey gettleman. on wednesday, "the intercept" published another in-depth investigation that further questions "the times" article and the reporting process behind it. it's headlined "between the hammer and the anvil: the story behind the new york times october 7 exposé" and the two reporters who wrote it join us today. jeremy scahill is a senior reporter and correspondent at "the intercept." he joins us from germany. and ryan grim is "the intercept's" bureau chief in washington. d.c., where he joins us from. we welcome you both to democracy now! jeremy, let's begin with you.

can you lay out first the significance of this "new york times" article that's at the center of the controversy and then talk about your latest piece that looks into how it came about. >> in early december, you had the death toll in gaza. you had a number of nations, including those that are allies with israel, starting to speak out about the death toll among women, children, elderly. part of a pattern of what we have seen throughout the course of these five months scorched-earth attacks against gaza is whenever israel perceives itself to be losing a narrative war or when he needs to remind the public of its perception that israel is the only victim in this story, they unload a new round of attacks against a variety of individuals

or organizations that are working in gaza or living in gaza, human beings. we saw that with the attacks against unrwa, against hospitals . in early december, prime minister benjamin netanyahu and his government began an intense propaganda campaign to convince the world that hamas had engaged in systematic campaign of rape aimed at jewish women and girls. then they launched this fake witticism of feminist pregnant -- criticism of feminist organizations . on the day netanyahu made his most prominent statement about this, president biden was at a fundraising event in boston and he made a statement at a speech that echoed what netanyahu said, the world cannot turn away and

ignore this. what was happening at that moment was "the new york times," with one of its most prominent international correspondence, jeffrey gettleman, recently hit the ground in israel and was working -- he enlisted the help of two individuals that were going to work with him. gettleman proposed three lines of investigation and one of them was the issue of sexual violence. the two individuals that gettleman was working with, one of them is a very young person who only recently has gotten into journalism come adam sella, and he had been a few journalists and has a background in looking at agricultural issues, etc. he had started to write some freelance pieces dipping into the waters of politics and the conflict. quite an experience reporter. the other was someone with reporting experience outside of making some documentary films and that is anat schwartz.

it is unclear how anat schwartz in particular got involved with this project. early on in the israeli attacks against gaza, like a tweet that was cited by the international court of justice as a potentially -- statement of potential genocidal incitement. she liked a tweet from the israeli government promoting the debunked allegation that 40 babies had been beheaded on october 7, which is entirely false, as well as another tweet that said we must just refer to hamas as isis. they start off on this investigation, and our understanding from sources is the overwhelming majority of the interviews and reporting being done on the ground was being handled by anat schwartz and adam sella. we discovered a podcast interview with anat schwartz in

hebrew that she gave where she -- shocking podcast how much detail she offers about the process they used when reporting it. just to put it in a nutshell, she describes how the first thing she did was start to call around to what she describes as the israeli hospitals that have facilities called room 4 facilities, the intake places where people who have been victims of sexual crimes, including assault and rape, where they would be examined and said not a single one of them reported they had any reports of sexual assault or rape on october 7. she started calling around to rape crisis hotlines and described how she -- she describes an intense conversation with the manager of the rape crisis hotline that part of israel where she was

dumbfounded when he was saying he did not have any calls reporting any sexual assault or rape. she is saying, how is this possible? then she goes to a therapeutic center that was established at a former high-end retreat center outside of tel aviv where mostly people from the nova raids where a couple hundred people were killed, a place where people could do alternative medicine, relaxation therapy. she goes there and her characterization was she sensed what she called a conspiracy of silence among the therapists because none of them were telling her, yes, we're treating people who were raped or experienced sexual assault. when she with to the official channels come the places where you would reach out if you're are exploring if there is a pattern, what then happened is she starts to look at who has been interviewed about alleged

rapes during the october 7 attack and ends up going and re-interviewing a handful of people who already had made assertions that they witnessed rapes. some of these people had told varying versions of their stories -- which in itself does not mean they did not witness something. these are people in the midst of an incredibly violent bisson. but more central to that is some of the people that "the new york times" relied on to assert there was a systematic, intentional campaign of rape weaponized by hamas are people who have no forensic or crime scene credentials. these are people who are not legally permitted in israel to determine rape. they relied on these individuals to make this claim that there was a systematic rape regime implemented. some of those people have well-documented track records of promoting very incendiary

narratives about atrocities that occurred on october 7 that were for regular -- flagrantly false. what is the most ubiquitous figures that has emerged in israel's narrative that hamas committed systematic rape is in architecture from new jersey who is living in israel now and is a member of the israeli defense forces unit. she was deployed to prepare women's bodies for burial in the bases of a tech facilities. she has been quoted as saying they saw widespread evidence of rapes and personally witnessed it, but sherry mendez also was quoted by "the daily" as saying a pregnant woman had a fetus cut out of her body and the fetus was beheaded and then the mother was beheaded.

this is entirely false. we have gone through all of the official records that israel has put out on people who died that day. there was no pregnant woman killed that day. she also relied on a senior official -- and ultra-orthodox private rescue organization. it has been exposed by haaretz is one of the promoters of false information and also that they contaminated the crime scenes by moving evidence around the actual professionals -- they also promoted the beheaded babies story. "the new york times," they can't find one who works in the rape crisis centers that are coming forward and saying, yeah, we saw this or have documentation. so they go to people who were known to a promoted false information and then they start relying on their testimony to paint this tapestry, this notion

there was systematic rape regime. in the article, they do not ever disclose their key witnesses have serious credibility problems. this is at a minimum we are looking at a "new york times" piece that failed to inform its readers about severe credibility issues among some of its premier witnesses. amy: i want to go to part of a podcast interview that anat schwartz did on january 3 conducted in hebrew. talking about the difficulties and pressures and reporting the story. >> the standard we have to meet may not be realistic. maybe it won't be this complete big story told from beginning to end, complex come has details and nuances and characters and maybe we are aiming too high. then there was the u.n. woman

and the silence and a lot of preoccupation with it. so i said, we are missing momentum. maybe the u.n. is not addressing sexual assault because know how it will come out of the declaration about what happened there it will no longer be interesting. as some point after one of the rewrites, we said, ok, that's it. i already informed the people in the israeli police were waiting to see what was going on. was "the new york times" not believing there were sexual assaults? i am also an israeli but i also work for "the new york times," so all the time i am in this place between the hammer and the anvil. and because that is anat schwartz said she fell between the hammer and the anvil, which, jeremy, you choose as the title of your piece. talk about the significance of that and the relationship between anat schwartz and the young reporter adam sella. >> another part of this story is that one of the main victims

that was featured in this is referred to as the woman in the black dress. her family members are individuals in the featured photo on the piece. another thing we have learned from israeli researchers is when anat schwartz and adam sella went to a woman that had taken photographs of the woman that day, they told the photographer that it was her duty under israeli to cooperate with "the new york times" and let them have all of her photos. public diplomacy is the meaning of the term. it is the notion that israel should engage in externally focused propaganda in order to win over international audiences, primarily western, united states and powerful countries, to israel's point of view. she is using this term to

encourage someone to cooperate with "the new york times" not because the paper is the most important news organization in the world but because it is their duty. which talks about being caught between the hammer and the anvil, what she is saying she is saying she is, between her duty to be honest and a journalist at her duty to serve the agenda of the israeli state. her partner in this, adam sella, is the nephew of anat schwartz's partner. they are not married. "the new york times" they requested our correction from us because we initially said it was her nephew -- which i think in the context of america and other countries you would say if you are some of his lifetime party would say this is my nephew. they are not blood relatives, fine. we corrected that. my question is, where the corrections in "the new york times was quote please? the paper has grave miscarriage rations of -- mi

mischaracterizations of justice. in a moment when israel was intensifying after the break pause where captives were exchanged, genocidal attacks against the people of gaza. this played a very significant role. the more we learn about this, the more we discovered that reporting tactics that "the new york times" use are certainly not up to the standards that the newspaper claims to be promoting. they will not issue any corrections on what has already been document it to be very problematic sins of commission and omission in this piece. amy: we're going to take a break and come back to this conversation. we are talking to jeremy scahill, senior reporter and correspondent at "the intercept." next up he will be joined by ryan grim, washington, d.c., bureau chief for "the intercept." we want to talk about what is

happening now in response to this story and the leak investigation going on and why a podcast based on their story, their own podcast "the daily," did not air. stay with us. ♪ [music break] ♪ [music break]

amy: "i'm from here" by amal markus. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we are speaking with intercept reporters jeremy scahill and ryan grim about their exposé into "the new york times" article published at the end of december must've they published another one in january. we asked "the new york times" for a response to your article and the international editor responded -- "ms. schwartz was part of a rigorous reporting and editing process. she made valuable contributions and we saw no evidence of bias in her work. we remain confident in the accuracy of our reporting and stand by the team's investigation. but as we have said, her 'like'' of offensive and opinionated social media posts, predating her work with us, are unacceptable." ryan, if you can respond to this and talk about what is going on

internally in "the times" and also talk about this leak investigation going on within the paper of record. >> i her own admission in that interview, she had significant violence. there are two ways to think about what happened on october 7. the first way is it was a day of extraordinary mayhem and violence. israeli defenses melted away not only did you have several thousand hamas fighters stream across the fence but you also had hundreds of civilians from across. in that context, the idea that would be no sexual assault is not taken seriously by pretty much anyone who understands war and violence. that is one way to think about october 7. the other way is hamas intentionally and systematically designed a kind of strategy of weaponizing rate and sexual violence. that was what anat schwartz and "the new york times" believed going into the investigation.

and oftentimes as journalists, we have something we think we're going to be able to prove. we report it out and we can't quite get it. we just don't land of the story. what "the times" it is they wrote the story anyway. that gets you to "the daily" episode. it comes out in december, landmark pieces get turned into episodes of their flagship podcast "the daily." emelia after the story came out, it started coming under the schism. a lot of the named subjects have enormous credibility problems. that gets pointed out inside "the times" the producers of "the daily" go over the stories for fact checking. the original script produced for that first episode has to be discarded because the producers could not stand behind it. they redrafted a second s

cript. it is an interesting podcast episode and something worth exploring. if they had aired that, he would've raised questions about why they were walking away from the certainty of the original piece. we reported on the machinations inside "the new york times" about this conversation the disputes what was going on. "the new york times" has rather than reviewing the kind of journalism that went into this, they are launching a leak investigation to try to figure out who is talking to us. amy: in february, one of the reporters behind "the new york times" investigation, jeffrey gettleman, spoke at a conference on conflict-related sexual violence hosted by columbia university. he talked about the piece. >> stores about hostages and

pretty soon, maybe, i don't know, within the first few days of this attack, we were hearing reports of rape and mutilations of women. we heard right away. maybe people in this room are never those videos of the female soldiers being taken away in the body of that one woman in the back of a pickup truck half naked. right away it just -- there was always the crimes against women that happened. sadly, because i have experience doing this, i began looking to see what we could find out. i worked with two other colleagues and we interviewed almost 200 people over the course of two months. what we found -- i don't want to even use the word evidence because evidence is almost like a legal term that suggests you're trying to prove an allegation or prove a case in court. that is not my role. we all have our roles and mine is to document.

amy: i want to get a response to what he is saying. he is talking, by the way, to sheryl sandberg, the former coo of meta. jeremy scahill, if you can talk about what he sees his role as a reporter? >> this is an astonishing comment from jeffrey gettleman. what is he talking about that it is not the job of journalists to uncover evidence? if you're going to have a headline -- by the way, let me say this, the screams without words headline comes from a source named roz cohen who claims to have witnessed a rape of a woman that he said -- he is a special forces veteran and he has been very adamant that the people who he saw committing this crime were not hamas that they were ordinary people. he has said that in numerous interviews. to have -- he said it was like

screams without words. they're using a headline from a person whose testimony undermines the thesis of their blockbuster story. just to put that on the table. but for government to say it is not the job of journalists to produce evidence when your one essay in the middle of a war were civilians are being starved and killed in an operation under review now by the international court of justice for genocide, if you're going to then make an allegation that hamas limited systematic rape campaign and you say it is not your job to produce evidence, then what is the job of a journalist in a situation like this? honestly, if you read their piece carefully, much of it is innuendo. much of it is based on sources who have either credibility issues or lack of professional credentials to weigh in on these matters. this is a grave situation, what of the most important pieces of

journalism that have been produced during this war one of the votes consequential. for the lead reporter who is inexperienced were corresponded to say it is not the job of a "new york times" to produce evidence in an article asserting hamas systematically raped women ? it is astonishing. astonishing. amy: the prestigious gorge polk award for foreign reporting this year was awarded to the staff of "the new york times." reading in part "for unsurpassed coverage of the war between israel and hamas. times reporters used firsthand accounts to demonstrate how brutal and well planned the hamas attack was." and this article in question "screams without words" was apparently part of the package submitted by "the new york times" that won the award. ryan grim? >> i want to add one thing to what jeremy was saying. it is remarkable that sheryl

sandberg was on that panel with jeffrey gettleman because on december 4, and jeremy talked about how this campaign was rolled out, on december 4 sheryl sandberg and the israeli ambassador to the united nations hosted an event at the u.n. that launched the campaign against the feminist organizations for not standing up and condemning hamas's systematic use of rape. the next day was netanyahu and then biden pot on that campaign. on december 4, sheryl sandberg penned an op-ed in cnn and gave interviews or was quoted in "the new york times" on that same day in an article by jeffrey gettleman and anat schwartz and adam sella. they were all working together on december 4 to launch this campaign. the december fort article in "the new york times" had a softer headline that said open what do we know about the use of sexual violence on october 7?"

they reported at the time that israel had enormous amounts of forensic evidence that they were going through that would establish all of the claims they were making. on december 8 or nine, they quietly corrected that story to say, correction, israel does not have forensic evidence to back up these claims, is relying on eyewitness testimony. anat schwartz priebus the reported they had "tens of thousands of eyewitnesses" that they were going to bring four to make these claims. they frontloaded this campaign with these major claims there was forensic evidence and thousands of witnesses. the final article comes out at the end of the month and to a casual reader, you would come away from reading it saying, well, they proved they made her case. this barbaric terrorist organization did use rape

systematically against israeli women and that was used to justify the continuation of the war on gaza. as you said, when "the daily" try to look closely at the article, they realized they could not stand up the claims that were being made. so inside "the times" you have the extremely intense debate going on. i think leaders at "the times" are used to external criticism of the internal criticism has them on the back foot. amy: even the use of the term "terrorist" within "the new york times" in the stepping back of one of the leading editorial directors? >> there is a light of -- there is a lot of concern particularly among reporters who do work on an international level that there has been a politicization of this war internally with the

newsroom that is impacting the coverage. i think it is pretty clear you can see that in some of the journalism and now "the new york times" has ended up walking back to major claim they made and now saying it may have occurred. that is one of the most significant things we unc