again tomorrow. now, time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening lawrence. lawrence. lawrence. lawrence. lawrence. lawrence. lawrence. lawrence. lawrence. lawrence. lawrence. lawrence. lawrence. lawrence. >> good evening alex. what i was watching the trump show, i was thinking about the people who could have handled that better. the interviewers who could've handled that better. one of them, going to join us tonight. actually, more than one, but one professional interview where will join us tonight. andrew weissmann joins us to. he would have been great on that stage. it is not his normal form, but, it needed a courtroom approach. a more persei's, targeted question,

then many of the questions we got. so, we will try to see, and we might have some suggestions. >> i would like to see andrew weissmann versus trump, but i would like to see it in a courtroom. that is another matter, for another day. i will be watching, lawrence. >> i think cnn did the best they could, it using conventional tools, and we kind of knew ahead of time that conventional tools don't work. i only hope that they are, honestly, privately, i'm not asking them to admit any mistakes, publicly, but just privately, watch the game film, try to figure out what you did right, because you did two things right, and try to do better than next time. you know there will be a next time. trump is coming back to cnn. he has found a new home, he will be back. let's just hope that cnn is watching the game, film

trying to figure out how to do it better. >> here's to fingers crossed. have a good show, lawrence. >> thank you alex. thank you. well, donald trump, only submitting to interviews with people that he thinks he can beat. he has been right to most of the time with giannis and swan being the most memorable exception. donald trump has never done an interview, or a town hall, with anyone he fears. like, say, rachel maddow, or chris hayes. both of whom, having prime time shows since long before donald trump became a politician. now is the boot where you might want to close your eyes, for just a second. imagine, what would have been different with rachel maddow on that stage last night with donald trump? i was the first person in the news business to call donald trump a liar. i did that on television, and i labeled what he was saying about president obama's birth certificate, a lie. that was on this program, in 2011. many, many years before anyone at the new york times, or cnn, or any other news organization dared to use the word lie in the same sentence with the words of donald trump. on twitter, then,

donald trump threatened to sue me for calling him a liar, and on twitter i begged him to sue me so i could get him in an under oath deposition like e. jean carroll. so, it's not surprising that donald trump has never done an interview with me, on a program that has a larger audience than any show on cnn. usually, this program has triple the audience that cnn has. when i was calling donald trump a liar, in 2015, when he was running for president, last night's cnn moderator was worried about someone else. >> george soros is this foreign born, left wing guy, who, essentially, wants to change the nature of our country. >> alabama born, kaitlan collins, not yet working for cnn. she was working for tucker carlson at the time, at a right-wing website where she fell for the lie that she was never

fact-checked on. that george soros was funding black lives matter. >> i think it is an issue, also that, the democratic party needs to address. so many democrats have openly endorsed black lives matter. now that we see that this guy who funds hillary clinton, is also funding black lives matter, it is a problem, and something that american should be aware of. >> that was 2015. that was two presidential elections ago. there are people working at cnn, right now, who knew that that was crazy talk then. and those people, all, had more experience interviewing presidents, and presidential candidates. but, donald trump chose kaitlan collins. that is common in these situations, with news

networks. the candidate, in effect, chooses through the moderator will be. cnn have many said the name caitlin collins first, before donald trump in, the trump then accepted that name, when he could have rejected that name, and gotten anyone else he wanted at cnn. this is the way all networks do these things. this is not by accident that donald trump found himself on stage with kaitlan collins. i've never seen anyone at cnn do a better job of interviewing donald trump. i have never seen anyone, at any other network, to a better job of interviewing donald trump. i do not think that i could have done a better job of interviewing donald trump, but there are many people who could. many of them do not work in tv news, where the conventional style of tv questioning, absolutely, does not work with donald trump. never has, never will. the one thing that i would not have

done is wasted to questions. asked some stupid questions. it took a village. it took a village to, ask questions from the stage last night. a cnn political reporter said that we're told colin's has been steadily prepping since the town hall, which has been in the works for months, was finally confirmed, two weeks ago. spending hours meeting with producers, network ceo chris licked, and top execs mark preston, and david -- at a new hampshire hotel. cnn's senior staffers play trump in the private sessions, we're told, and last, night collinson team hit the stage at saint and some going through staging, and lighting. the staging, and lighting was beautiful. perfect. nice work. david took a high minded angle, with the new york times by saying, i obviously can't control what donald trump says, but what we can control is our journalism.

so the one thing, they absolutely knew that they could control, was the first question. they had weeks, and weeks, and weeks of, meetings. to decide what the first question would be. and the first question was classic, washington press, group think. it was a childish question. it didn't ask for an answer to anything. it asked for a speech. and the question that they worked on, for weeks, and delivered to trump, by the team at cnn was, why should americans put you back in the white house? that was the first question. of course, donald trump gave a speech, and he got laughs, right away, and he ignored, as the question invited him to, the preamble to the question. that cnn who worked on that for weeks. preamble to questions are meaningless. it is the question

that counts. here is what the cnn team came up with as the hard-hitting, totally ignore-able, preamble to that question. your polls show that you are dominating the republican race right now, but you are also under active federal investigation for trying to overturn the 2020 election results. your first term ended with a deadly riot at the capitol, and you still have not publicly acknowledged the 2020 election results, why should americans put you back in the white house? >> to cnn surprise, donald trump ignored those points in the preamble, leaving kaitlan collins, hopelessly, trying to wrestle him into answering the question, can you publicly acknowledge that you did lose the 2020

election? it was a very conventional line of questioning ten for washington reporters. most of them would have chosen such hopeless, open-ended questions. most washington reporters could not have done better than the question, do you have any regrets about your actions on january 6th? donald trump's answer to that question, quickly, caught laughter from the audience, at the mention of nancy pelosi, in the most insulting terms he could find from nancy pelosi. we know donald trump has no regrets about his actions on january 6th. what could possibly give someone the idea that that was a good question to ask. that was the question that wasted several minutes of donald trump,

lying, about what happened on january 6th. kaitlan collins lost that struggle with donald trump about january 6th. she tried, she challenged him, but never in the right way. her toughest question about january 6th was, so why didn't you tell them to go home sooner? donald trump was never asked why he did not make it single phone call to anyone in the government to stop the ongoing attack on the capitol, while it was going on. donald trump was not asked why he never ordered any action during the attack on the capitol to, stop the attack on the capitol. no one, no one, at cnn, dared to consider playing the video, for donald trump, and as importantly, his audience, his cheering audience, the tape of liz cheney's description of donald trump's dereliction of duty during the

infamous 187 minutes. >> he did not call his secretary of defense on january 6th. he did not talk to his attorney general. he did not talk to the department of homeland security the national guard made no ordered to go out and, they made no effort to work with the department of justice to deploy law enforcement assets. vice president pence did each of those things. >> and now, allow yourself a second to imagine, if liz cheney had been on that stage with donald trump last week. kaitlan collins pointed out, mike pence was at the capitol that day, and felt that donald trump endangered his life to which donald trump said, i don't think he wasn't any danger. then, time the question which was probably worked on for weeks, by the cnn team, mister president, do you feel that you owe him an apology. big surprise, donald trump doesn't think he owes mike pence an apology. that was a wasted question. what should have been asked was, why didn't to call the vice president of the united states, when he was in a building, that was being attacked. why didn't you take

action to protect the life of the vice president of the united states, when he was in a building that you were watching being attacked on television, by people who are threatening to kill mike pence. cnn came up with, do you feel you owe him an apology. when cnn was rehearsing these questions with their staffer, standing in for donald trump, did the trump impersonator of a? the buckle under the weight of that question, and proved, that was a great question, that will work. kaitlan collins did a very good job, with donald trump's ignorance it is what the debt ceiling is, and his recklessness. urging republicans to default on the debt. she did an excellent job in exposing donald trump's full recklessness on the debt ceiling. >> you once said,

using the debt ceiling as a negotiating wedge could not happen. you said that. >> that was one of president. >> why is a different other out of office? >> now i'm not president. >> the hypocrisy is exposed, the hypocrite gets lost i, and that gets laughter. the laughter, and applause, by the cnn assembled audience tells you everything you need to know about the trump voters in that room. there is nothing in government, that they take seriously. they think it is all a joke, because donald trump has proved to them, it is all a joke. he, himself, is a joke. and he was president, because they voted for the joke. that, now, widespread republican belief, that the debt ceiling

is a joke, has the country on the precipice of a possible, economic disaster. kaitlan collins, repeatedly, used an old, washington standard. that unthinking reporters always rely on. do you stand by those comments. when has donald trump ever said, no, i didn't mean what i said in the past. the, do you stand by those comments questions repeated over, and over, as the weakest possible way to approach donald trump. you know you will get along, rambling speech after a question like that. kaitlan collins, and or the cnn team

came up with a very good, clear, simple, pointed question about abortion. would you sign a federal abortion ban into law. excellent question. it became very clear, very quickly, that donald trump was never going to answer that question. but, kaitlan collins continued to chase him on that particular question, and ignored stunning lies that donald trump told about democrats, saying, roe v. wade, under it, quote, they could kill the baby at anytime they wanted to. donald trump reminded the audience, he accused hillary clinton of wanting to, quote, rip the baby out of the womb at the end of the ninth month. they will kill the baby in the ninth month. cara swisher, of new york magazine, proved, last night on twitter, and has proved many

times, in interview she has conducted, that donald trump could not, possibly, have survived with carole swisher on that stage. she wrote, you cannot be caught up in getting him to answer your question, because it becomes clear he has exactly no intention of answering it. a good example was the, obvious, lie of the nine months abortion that he kept repeating, unchallenged, rather than trying to get him to answer the original question about a federal ban on abortion. you need to quickly shift to calling out the lie, very clearly, and then asking him why he chose to lie about it? arguing about the lie itself is a dead end. call it a weird lie to. it is so provably wrong, and, definitely, ask him about his, personal, experience when it came to abortion. love cara swisher. wish you would have been on that stage last

night. i've no doubt that everyone at cnn approach the question with donald trump honorably, and with the best of professional intentions. i know the head of cnn, and i am fully confident, he was trying to deliver a useful hour of television to american voters. but, using the conventional tools of these so-called tv town halls, including selecting an audience of only republican voters, when potential republican voters, and then inviting the most unconventional candidate in history, inevitably, created the problem of, what do you do about the constant flow of lies during the hour? using the conventional tools, cnn did the best they could. but, using the conventional tools meant that cnn has not figured out a way to improve its coverage of donald trump in the eight years since donald trump became a politician. and kaitlan collins was, still, concerned about the foreign born george soros. joining us now, mehdi hasan, host of the besanko on msnbc, and peacock. he is the author of, when every argument, the art of debating, persuading, and public speaking. this is why he is here tonight. also

with us, columnist for the new york times, an msnbc political analyst. i was thinking about you every minute. you are one of the people who could have been sent on to that stage, and donald trump would not have survived. i am here to help cnn with their postgame analysis of how to do this better. we can hope that they will do it better, but they have to work a lot harder than the specificity of their questions. you are the expert on this, so tell us, what you saw, and what you think that they need to improve. >> before i do, that you make a good point, lawrence, about the host, and trump selection of host. i would say, there's only been three television interviews, in the decade, were trump's feet were held to the fire, where he looked nervous, defensive, held to account. jake tapper in 2016, and jonathan swan, and chris wallace, in 2024 hbo, and fox. interestingly, cnn employed two

of those three people. wallace, and tapper. funny enough, they didn't do the interview on wednesday night. surprising that, not so much. what would i have done differently? firstly, not have done the interview. if you are going to do the interview, number one, don't do it live. number two, you don't do it in front of an audience of his groupies, and super fans. number three, when donald trump turns up with a piece of paper in his pocket, when he has a prop peoples or to laughter, and reads his own quotes back to you, what do you have? what does the host have? what weaponry, conventional, or unconventional, can you bring to this event? i think the town hall format was a disaster for cnn, and for kaitlan collins. when she said to him, you asked for extra votes when brad raffensperger and he said, no i didn't, and lies, that is a moment to play the phone call. we have never seen donald trump react to the phone call. lay the phone call to your 3 million viewers you have for

the first time at 9:00 on wednesday night at cnn. when he says, for example, chris mueller the acting defense secretary, he didn't say what you think i said about the national guard, play the 16 testimony. when he says, ashli babbitt, poor ashli babbitt was killed, forget the police officers, play the violence against the police officers at length. put the camera on trump's face while you do it, and get him to react. you need to create moments where he is put on the defensive. jonathan swan didn't wonderfully when trump photographs about south korean covid. jonathan moved on, he famously said, let's look at these graphs. then you can see trump panicking, because trump expects the interviewer to move on. you do not move on. as you say, you asked the pointed questions, and then you stick with it. too often on wednesday night, kaitlan collins moved on, or handed the make to an audience member who is, invariably, a trump supporter. nine people spoke from the audience, seven of those people were supporters of trump's 2020 reelection bid. that is a joke. that is not an audience of undecided. the audience was and disaster, and a joke. one last point, you mentioned the ceo cnn chris link said, this morning, on an editorial call, it was a success because we

made news. number one, they didn't make that much news, most trump lies were old. number two, it is not our job, lawrence, to make news. in that situation our job is to report the news, educate and inform, and to hold the people in power to account. trump is celebrating, his supporters are celebrating, he was not held to account. >> let's be fair to cnn about this point of the audience. it is common, at the presidential primary stage, for the networks to assemble an audience of voters who will vote in that primary. so, mostly democratic voters, and some undecided voters or, mostly republican voters, and to undecided. >> they only had two undecided. >> yes, i can see what you're saying there. what i would say about that is that it is one of the examples of the things, i think, all of these networks need to reconsider. would it be so bad for the democratic candidate for president, in a town hall, to have to hear a question from a republican in the audience? let's remember, every one of those questions was screened by cnn, they were forced to read their questions. so, cnn knew what every question was, before they put the last question from the audience on the air. you don't need to put crazy questions on the air, and they didn't. but, i'm just making the point about the audiences. the networks have always taught it that way. it is time to

rethink that. charles, among many other things about the conventional approach to this. >> right. i think that you're use of the words conventional tools were very appropriate here. i think committee skipped over this idea of having to have the town hall in the first place, saying that we should have had it. let's stick on that for a little while. you could make a strong, journalistic argument, about the size of impact people have. this is a front runner among

republicans, the need to accommodate a town hall, or some need to have that person be heard, so that people can get understanding of who they are. there is a counter argument, however, which is that none of our conventional tools were ever built for a person like this. we keep trying to apply these tools and all parts of society, whether they are government, media, or otherwise, to donald trump. they just do not fit. there is no way to deal with this torrent of lies, coming at you. you can say, let's stop, let's show this contest video, i think that helps, but the problem is, what is the benefit at the end of the day? in journalism, we are taught for,

those who are certainly want to journalism school, or talk about, what are the benefits of journalism writ large, to society? it is to uncover, and to expose. what journalistic, societal benefit, comes from allowing someone that much time to unleash a torrent of lies, which you cannot fact-checked in realtime. it is not a situation that we have ever found ourselves in. we have fact-checker's, who we've had for probably decades, but they were factoring in a couple of things. is a person exaggerating here, maybe it wasn't all a lie somewhere, but this idea that the pursued on the agreement, or even interview is lying all of the time? there is no way to deal with that. you end up, although your motives are good, journalistically, you end up in

the end, doing a disservice. the lines have gotten out of the bag. now you need to spend the next couple of days trying to shove the lies back in. but, you will never have the same audience. so, we had to stop, and to consider, whether or not we have to change conventional wisdom, and conventional tactics, for this one person. that is because he is such a threat to not only journalism, but to the country itself. >> i am, officially, undecided on whether cnn should, or should not do this. i am not undecided on whether they should try harder. they should be trying harder. they said they had no rules with trump, no agreements with trump, but that means there was no reason they couldn't have used that kind of video that many is talking about, and that i am referring to. but, really, they have -- they absolutely have to figure out new ways of doing this. we know they will keep doing it, and i'm going to take the role of encouraging them to do better. that's all i can offer them. mehdi has son, charles blow, thank you both for joining this discussion tonight. thank you. coming up, last night, donald trump made statements that can, and will, be used against him a special prosecutor, jack smith. andrew weissmann joins us, next. weissmann joins us, next. weissmann joins us, next. weissmann joins us, next. weissmann joins us, next. - double check that. eh, pretty good!

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>> no, it would've made a difference. this is a rigged deal. my lawyer said, sir, you don't have to do it. >> do you wish that you had testified? was the weakest possible way of asking donald trump about his fear of testifying in e. jean carroll's lawsuit where the jury ruled in favor of e. jean carroll and awarded her $5 million for donald trump's assault. the right question would've been, why did you lie to reporters when you are standing on a golf course in ireland last week and tell them, that you are leaving early to rush back to new york to, in your words, confront that woman, in court? a lie that provoked the judge in the case to extend the deadline until sunday night, for you, donald trump, to decide whether you would testify in that case. why did you lie, that you are rushing back? donald trump, of course, would've lied his way around that question, but you have to load his previous lies into the question in order to make the question worth asking. do you wish that you had testified was a terrible

question on that point. kaitlan collins did effectively obtain testimony from donald trump last night that can and will be used against him by special prosecutor jack smith. >> why did you take those documents with you when you left the white house? >> i had every right tool under the presidential records act. the presidential records act i was there, i took what i took, and it gets declassified >> that shows jack smith that

don trump willfully and knowingly took the classified documents that are the subject of a criminal investigation. and then there was this. >> did you ever show those classified documents to anyone? >> not really. i would have the right to. by the way, they were declassified after -- not that i can think of. >> one of donald trump's answers also indicates that he knew that he will fully did not comply with the subpoena requiring him to return the documents. >> why did you not tune them over. we >> -- were negotiating with them. so those donald trump in that answer to kaitlan collins saying that he knew that he willfully did not comply with the subpoena, and joining us now is andrew weissmann, former fbi general counsel and former chief of the criminal division eastern district of new york, professor at and law school in nbc legal analyst. and i think andrew tonight there is one person out there tearing cnn please, more trump town halls, and that would be jack smith. >> absolutely. and, to relate that to the conversation you are having, in a previous block, the reason is

that all of these are admissions. they are all admissible. and one of the things that jack smith, when this is indicted, is going to do, is have a chart of all of the admissions of what donald trump has said. particularly his inconsistent stories, saying that this is inconceivable that he is telling the truth because his stories about what happened to the documents keeps changing. you remember when we first heard of this it was basically a defense detour. we are going to see a chart lists that all out. and when you are questioning donald trump in an interview, as happened last night, you were to go through all of those inconsistent stories. you would do what medicine said, it was slow down and take your time and make him have to eat each one of those to point out all of the inconsistent stories. the second thing you could do is, you could also sum up, a classic sort of prosecutorial technique, you saw it in the e. jean carroll case, which is to say, you say acts, but let's

talk about all the other people who say why. mike pence told you that the election wasn't stolen. bill barr, your own attorney general said that. the leaders of the depart me a tartan just to said. that and go through the litany of all the evidence of people saying it did not happen and then say we have your word, with no evidence, just to a word that was stolen. so that kind of technique is one that you are going to see in court, and it's something that could be used by cnn and other reporters if you slow down and really force the person to have to confront all of that. >> i wish you could give a class in law school for questioning donald trump on television, which is a separate discipline, since there is no

judge there to gavel in donald trump as a witness. quickly, before we go, it seems that the case for obstruction of justice was strengthened last night when donald trump consciously said i knew that i didn't return all the documents for the subpoena. >> yeah. the obstruction case got stronger. an interesting part of the case, which was, we've all been thinking about this case is an illegal retention case, the to legally retain the documents at mar-a-lago, but it's unclear if he illegally took the documents from the white house. his lawyers have been saying it was inadvertent. well, according to his own testimony yesterday, that's not what it was. it was intentional. >> andrew weissmann, thank you very much for joining us tonight. really appreciate it. >> you're welcome. >> coming up, don trump offered a solution to school shootings last night. teachers with guns. fred guttenberg, who lost his

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the minor lies trump told last night. donald trump offered his solution to end school shootings in america when he said, i love teachers, many of these teachers are soldiers, ex old, years ex policeman. they are people that really understand weapons. teachers with guns is the trump solution. our next guest, fred guttenberg, whose daughter jaime was murdered in the parkland florida massacre. chuck schumer and chris murphy here, before senate democrats met to discuss gun safety

legislation. senate democrats meeting was scheduled after eight people were murdered by a nazi with an ar-15 at a texas mall on saturday. the shooting left six-year-old boy named william without his parents and three year old brother. joining us now is fred guttenberg, who lost his daughter jaime in the 2018 parkland school shooting. he's the coauthor of american carnage, shattering the myths that fuel gun violence. fred, i'm very sorry that you have to be here on this subject and that we have met the way we have met. i am sorry for what you feel every time you have to discuss. this what is your reaction to donald trump saying teachers with guns especially all those former cops who were teachers that many of us would have, never met a former cop who's a teacher. >> so i didn't watch last night. i actually chose to ignore him, and i'm gonna be honest with you, i'm going to continue to choose to ignore him. however, the entire first 30

minutes of your show is my reaction. i have spent the past week here in washington telling every single legislator, stop listening to the liars. and last night, donald trump was the liar, and i just listen to the liars anymore. they put us in the position that we are in. let me just kind of frame the schools issue. because we're not gonna listen to him. here is what you need to. know there are about 115,000 schools in america, since columbine there about 400

school shootings. that's a lot of school shootings. however, it's 0. 3% of the total number of schools. and so the idea of arming teachers to solve that is simply, it is fulfilling the goal of a gun lobby but still wants to sell more guns. it will not make kids or faculty safer. in fact it will guarantee more gun violence in schools, because you will have more guns in schools with people who may react emotionally, who may leave them out. it is a terrible idea. >> what are you hoping that the democrats might be able to achieve? >> you know, listen, there's not a lot we need to do. 2004 election is around the corner. i needed democrats to put a plan out there that inspires americans, whether it is around bands, around -- around the age, around the background checks. lawrence, i don't need to tell you, this this is the election of our lifetime, and this is the issue that is going to drive people to vote in record

numbers in 24. i can assure you of one, the other side, the reason why they go so hard on that base, is, that base will vote. but 80% of america is with me on this one. 80% of america wants this problem solved. and we need to put out a plan shows the 80% of america, they will get it delivered, if we can put more senators in the senate and return the house and yes, return joe biden to the presidency. >> fred guttenberg, i am very sorry for what you have been through. i thank you very much and thank you for joining us again tonight. >> thank you, lawrence. >> fred's new book is american carnage, shattering the myths that fuel gun violence. coming up, last night donald trump once again secured vladimir putin support for his presidential campaign. he had professor timothy snyder joins us next.

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answer a very good question about who he wants to win the war in ukraine that russia started. which obviously makes donald trump the candidate vladimir putin once again wants to win the presidential election.

vladimir putin and his propaganda supporters and russia continue to threaten the use of nuclear weapons. and professor timothy snyder writes in the new york times, nearly 50 months of war, despite russian propaganda and western anxiety, there's is been no use of nuclear weapons. this is an absence worthy of an explanation. those who predicted escalation if ukraine six resisted, if the west of pride weapons, or if russia suffer defeat, have thus far been wrong. strategic thinkers point to deterrence and know that nuclear use would not, in fact, bring russian victory. it would ensure a dramatic western response and make russian leaders arise. but there's a deeper explanation. russia's nuclear talk is itself the weapon. joining system with the snyder, professor of history at yale university, the author of the road to an freedom, russia, europe, and america. professor snyder, i have to say, that was one of those sentences just completely blew the subject wide open for me with stunning clarity.

russia's nuclear talk is itself the weapon. now everything i have been hearing for the past year makes sense. >> thank you for the kind word. it is something very important to understand. either you have the nuclear propaganda or you have the nuclear use, but you don't have both. what russia has been doing has been using the nuclear talk for a very specific purpose, which is to try to prevent or at least slow down the delivery of western weapons, which would allow ukraine to win the war. that does not mean, and if it means the russia won't use the nuclear weapon, because using the weapon will take the possibility of bullying with nuclear weapons. that's what i mean when i say that top itself is the weapon. we need to get through this as quickly as we can because this propaganda, thus far, this propaganda victory is russia's only victory. it's a thing which is preventing the acquainting victory. >> i was very concerned about the nuclear possibility at the beginning and the first month, two months, when putin wasn't really saber-rattling with nuclear at that point because he didn't have to, he fought the imminent victory was any minute now. but then, as time wore on, two things happened.

putin and his acolytes started to talk about it. i got increasingly less concerned, as they talked about it more and more, because of what i was seeing them do on the battlefield, doing an action. it looked like every time we supplied the new thing that they said was the step to fire, they did nothing. >> or, if anything, they de-escalated. we've supplied new weapons, they lost battles, they retreated. that's not an escalation. that's a de-escalation. the escalatory work has been done by the russian propagandists themselves, who have worked very hard to explain how withdrawal is not withdrawal, defeat is not with defeat, and had the purposes of the war are constantly changing. so i think are observations there are very astute. what we are in is a conventional war, where some battles are won by one side, other battles are won by the other. it's very important for 1000 reasons that the right side when this war.

which is why, of course, mr. trump's remarks are so concerning. war is not one of these everybody's a winner type situations. one side can win, one side is going to lose, and we want to make sure that the right side winds. you >> make such a good point in the new york times, which has also been in the back of my mind but not as focused as this, and nuclear weapons did not bring the french victory in algeria, nor did they preserve the british empire. the soviet empire lost its war on afghanistan. israel failed to win in lebanon. nuclear powers lose wars with some regularity. the vietnam example was the one that was so vivid in my mind. i wasn't even counting the rest of them but also i guess afghanistan with the russians, that nuclear weapons, since world war ii, have never once helped a country when a war. >> the only time they were used by was country that had already won a war, and that's us, and it was a very special situation. the most of the time, since the second world war, the small country beats the bigger country. it's totally normal for a big empires, for nuclear powers, to lose wars, and this is why history is so wonderful and why it's so important to understand history. it can help us to see that an

individual moment which seems very threatening is part of a larger pattern. were is terrifying. we're contains risks but we also know that nuclear powers regularly fight and lose conventional wars. if we remember that it can make us less anxious and can help us understand what the russians are anxious about which is using their own superpower status. if they did use a nuclear weapon, that would not confirm but it would remove forever, it wouldn't obliterate their superpower status. they will be pariahs. everyone around them would build up nuclear powers, which is why they're not gonna do. it >> professor timothy snyder, once again enlightening us as no one else can. thank you for joining us tonight. >> thank you. >> we'll be right back.

>> the only time they were used by was country that had already won a war, and that's us, and it was a very special situation. the most of the time, since the second world war, the small country beats the bigger country. it's totally normal for a big empires, for nuclear powers, to lose wars, and this is why history is so wonderful and why it's so important to understand history. it can help us to see that an individual moment which seems very threatening is part of a larger pattern. were is terrifying. we're contains risks but we also know that nuclear powers regularly fight and lose conventional wars. if we remember that it can make us less anxious and can help us understand what the russians are anxious about which is using their own superpower status. if they did use a nuclear weapon, that would not confirm but it would remove forever, it wouldn't obliterate their superpower status. they will be pariahs.

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the media should handle the twice impeached former president who has no problem constantly lying, as the 11th hour gets underway on this thursday night. >> good evening once again. i'm stephanie ruhle.