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tonight -- >> did white house chief of staff mark meadows ever indicate that he was interested in receiving a presidential pardon related to january 6? >> he did seek that pardon, yes, ma'am. >> whatever trump did in his effort to overturn the election and take classified documents home with him, there's a good chance mark meadows was privy to it. now he could be playing a pivotal role in the special counsel investigation. major developments in the shooting death of a.j. owens. the suspect who police say fired through the front door, killing the florida mother of four, has been arrested. for first time, we are seeing the heartbreaking aftermath as video shows a.j. seeking help for his dying mom. we begin with big developments in the special counsel investigation into donald trump's mishandling of classified documents.

new reporting tonight indicates that federal prosecutors formally told trump's lawyers last week that trump is a target of the criminal investigation, according to two people briefed on the matter. "the guardian" says the lawyers were met before they met at doj headquarters where they made the case that their client should not be indicted. trump is making his own pleas, posting a new post hours ago. no one told me i'm being indicted. i shouldn't be because i've done nothing wrong. there's new reporting from "the washington post" indicating that justice department prosecutors are planning to bring a significant portion of any charges to a federal court in southern florida, according to people familiar with the matter, and who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal discussions. those people said that the legal

rationale is that the bulk of the conduct at issue in the investigation occurred in the southern district of florida, in and around trump's palm beach residence and private club. even if much of the investigation led by special counsel jack smith has been handled by a grand jury in washington, d.c. that approach by prosecutors does not rule out the possibility of some charges, such as perjury or false statements, being filed in washington. this comes as one of trump's top ai aides appeared for nearly an hour in miami, florida, this morning. taylor budowich, trump's former spokesperson, has been part of his shrinking inner circle since he left the white house. trump's proverbial right-hand man. he would be aware of many conversations trump had related to the classified documents and the investigation. as a spokesperson for trump, released statements on the

investigation, calling it a witch hunt and representing that trump did not retain classified records, which, of course, turned out to be untrue. a source tells nbche was asked about one of those statements. the doj may be looking to bring some charges to florida. who from the doj questioned him? "the guardian" is reporting the counterintelligence chief led the questioning. he appeared for grand jury proceedings covering the espionage side of the investigation, as opposed to the obstruction side. the previously unreported involvement of bratt could focus on potential espionage act violations, particularly whether trump showed off national security documents to people at his mar-a-lago resort. a recent focus of the

investigation. joining me now is our panel of msnbc legal analysts. attorney lisa rubin, former u.s. attorney joyce vance, who is a professor at the university of alabama school of law, and former federal prosecutor paul butler, who is a professor at georgetown school of law. i am among the well educated bunch. to you first, lisa. you are in miami. talk about this testimony today. >> it was fascinating because as you know, most of our viewers are not familiar with him as a character in this scenario. he was trump's spokesperson and communications director after he left the white house. he is now the head of a pro-trump superpac called maga inc. he took that position in september. between january of 2021 and september of 2022, taylor budo budowich was with him all the time. as you noted, he made multiple statements with respect to the

national archives' efforts to get classified documents and other presidential documents back in their possession, and then when the investigation warped into a criminal one, he was there again making a number of statements to press outlets on behalf of the former president. he even accused the colluding with "the washington post." we know taylor was in there today for around an hour. as you noted, one of those statements seems to have been at the heart of what prosecutors wanted to know from him. they know that trump drafted an initial version of that statement that went further than what was ultimately released. that initial version essentially said, i have returned every classified document that i ever had in my possession. budowich went back to lawyers and consulted with them. they determined that could not

see the light of day. that's what prosecutors wanted to know from taylor today. what did you know about the real scope of what trump had at the time that that statement went out? why didn't you let it go out the way the former president wanted it to? >> paul, let me come to you. we know that taylor budowich testified and lisa explained why it's important. this is about whether they were willing to put out a lie. the grand juries have talked with 20 secret service agents. they are talking to people who are privy to things trump is saying. you take that -- everyone is agreeing it feels like something is going to happen and it will happen in florida. talk about that for a minute. let's say this happens in florida. what would be the contours of trying to prosecute the former president in the state of florida? >> doj regulations say prosecution has to happen where the crime happened.

for espionage, if it's retaining documents, trump committed that crime allegedly in florida. if it's holding on to documents or trump committed that in the district of columbia. this is a decision that the prosecutor would have come to very reluctantly. they would much prefer a d.c. jury because of the jury pool and also because judges in d.c. have more experience dealing with national security cases. >> i will put up the election results. joe biden, 92.1% to 5.4% over donald trump in 2020. florida went 47.9% for biden, 51.2% for trump. it is trump country. that would be a difficulty in terms of having a jury there. >> of course, in the manhattan prosecution, there were reportedly jurors who voted for trump who still convicted him. going back to your point about the secret service, i think

that's key evidence. imagine you are a prosecutor and you are investigating someone who has watchers with him 24/7. that's a gold mine. prosecutors want to lock in their statements so that if one suddenly shows up as a defense witness at his possible trial, they don't say anything there that tries to help out the president, because if they said something different in the grand jury, the prosecutors would ask that famous question, are you lying then or are you lying now? >> if donald trump potentially took the documents from washington, he was still president, that he would have taken them theoretically before he was moved out of office on the 20th. it's more likely that you can really locate the crime in florida. on appeal, that could be an issue if you pick the wrong venue. what do you make of that? it makes more sense for florida. but i want to ask you if prosecutors think this way. if you do it in florida, it's harder to argue that it's some

sort of an attack on trump, because you are doing it in trump country. >> right. i think all of these things have an element of truth to them. this whole technical point about whether trump was president when he took the documents or not helps us understand that legal prosecutions are technical matters. we can look at what trump has done. we know it's wrong. it's awful. the question is, is it unlawful? that's the very narrow path that prosecutors have to tread here. because if he was entitled to possess the documents and the only crime is retention, then venue clearly exists in florida. it's interesting to note that the solicitor general, the current solicitor general was on the mueller team. she was there when they made these difficult decisions about venue and where to indict paul manafort. they ultimately indicted -- they

decided to indict one case in d.c., one case in the eastern district of virginia. she will have to defend any convictions on appeal. getting venue wrong is fatal for federal prosecutors. if you get it wrong, there's no do over. laying venue in florida whereas you point out there may not be juries that are against trump, makes it a little bit of sense. it's smart legally. but it also gives some integrity to a conviction that's obtained by jurors who may be willing to set aside their personal beliefs, follow the facts and the law and do the right thing. >> lisa, the participation of mr. bratt is an interesting note, to have somebody who is on the national security side, it seems significant. >> it does seem significant. we have known for a while that the charges that the department of justice has been interested in, irrespective of what

particular statute we are looking at, fall in two domains. they fall into obstruction of justice on one side, and then violation of the espionage act on the other. that has to do with the retention and dissemination of national defense information. it doesn't strictly have to be classified. his involvement today signals that the department is still looking at espionage charges or potentially other charges that have to do with the retention and dissemination of classified information itself, which is not something the espionage act requires. that's not a surprise. but it's helpful confirmation today. i want to return to one thing paul said. when he was referring to the e. jean carroll civil trial, there was a juror who admitted during jury questioning that he listens to a far right maga podcaster named tim pool. when e. jean carroll lawyers realized that, they tried to get

that juror excluded. we learned that after the verdict. the guy ended up staying. nonetheless, that was a jury that sided with e. jean carroll and against trump, finding he had not only defamed her but sexually assaulted her. i recognize that's different in florida where you may have an entire jury pool full of people who do things like listen to tim pool. that gives me more confidence that jurors are willing to really hear out the evidence and make decisions that might go against their own personal political beliefs. >> they will be read the statutes. i will come back to you in a second, paul. i want to go to joyce and i will have you weigh in. when it comes to the statutes, my own little minor experience being on a grand jury, is that people are diligent. no matter what their belief systems are, when you tell them this is the statute. i want to read something called 18 us c793. you know what it is. i don't.

if that statute is read, does that sound like something that trump could be facing? >> it does. you are reading from a portion of the espionage act, despite its frightening sounding name. it covers everything from holding on to documents that you are not entitled to have to outright selling the united states' most precious secrets to foreign countries. very broad range of conduct. is there good reason to believe that this statute is one of the big focuses of the special

counsel's investigation. here is what we don't know, joy. will trump be charged with retaining documents, or will he be charged with disseminating them, with passing them on to other people? that could be a very important aspect of the testimony that the special counsel took from the secret service agents who formed trump's detail. 20 of them were interviewed in the grand jury. this is intriguing. i would love to hear paul's thoughts about this. as a federal prosecutor, i never had a defendant who was trailed by secret service agents, trained to testify in court. these folks are all trained as observers and witnesses. they had eyes on donald trump 24/7. when they are asked questions about whether he disseminated any of the materials to other people, their responses will be authoritative. if they are in the affirmative, the president could be facing more serious charges. >> we will call that a tease.

trust me, we did not plan this. i had a question for paul. joyce set him up perfectly to be the first person after the break. we will thank lisa. you are in florida. you should enjoy the sun. it's not smoggy there. thank you very much. joyce and paul are sticking around. there's so much to discuss. i have 473 questions and not enough time to ask them all about trump's increasingly perilous legal position. and mark meadows. we will have joyce's question answered. give us two minutes of commercial time.

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so boost your bottom line by switching today. comcast business. powering possibilities™. with the news that former white house chief of staff mark meadows testified to the grand jury in the justice department investigation of donald trump, it's clear there's almost no area of his former boss' legal exposure he wasn't involved in.

trump's mishandling of classified documents and the effort to overthrow the election, and he testified in the georgia investigation into election interference. meadows' lawyer told "the new york times" without commenting on whether or not mr. meadows has testified before the grand jury or in any other proceeding, mr. meadows has maintained a commitment to tell the truth where he has a legal obligation to do so. joyce and paul are back. i want to go to you, paul, to talk about the idea of having this cornucopia of secret service evidence. >> it's amazing. it's a treasure trove of evidence. it's something that the special counsel is very happy to have. thinking about the issue of national security, again, why are these prosecutors who specialize in international stuff asking questions about mar-a-lago? that goes to national security.

trump's defense is going to be, pence did it when he was vice president. biden did it when he was vice president. they had documents they weren't supposed to have. what's the difference? number one, obstruction of justice. they gave the documents back. trump didn't. two, what did trump do with these documents? dissemination, it sounds mild and benign. what's that mean? trump was showing top secret documents from the government to people who weren't supposed to see them. >> let me make it complicated. this is the cnn reporting on the show the other day, that trump is captured on tape -- we haven't heard the tapes -- talking about a classified document he kept after leaving the white house on the recording and in response to this, he brings up the document, which he says came from mark milley. he is trying to prove he wanted to invade iran. trump told them, if he could show it, it would undermine what milley was saying. trump refers to the document as if it's in front of him. you could hear papers as he is saying it. if he did that, he did it in new

jersey. meadows is not materially involved, but it's involving a book being written about meadows. how does that complicate it? that's evidence of dissemination in theory. >> it's possible that trump could be indicted in various jurisdictions. what's so significant about this evidence is, no matter where the jury is, if they hear from trump's own mouth that he is guilty because he didn't think that these documents were unclassified, he knows he couldn't do that, and that he was showing off these documents, how could any american with that evidence find him not guilty? >> let me play for you trump's attorney, joyce. he will be interviewed by lawrence o'donnell about what the trump's legal teams' plan was. >> when you left former president trump's legal team about two weeks ago, there was a

plan in place if he were indicted. >> sure. any attorney in that situation would want to have a good plan in place. >> was part that was file motions to dismiss based on allegations of prosecutorial misconduct? >> i don't want to get into the specifics of what the plans were. i'm sure that those plans have evolved since. yeah, prosecutorial misconduct is a big issue that's infecting this case. >> prosecutorial misconduct is a big issue. how? >> that's exactly the right question. the devil is in the details on this one. look, there are cases where prosecutors cross the line. they are very rare in number. if trump has serious allegations to bring forward, i'm sure justice department prosecutors would consider them. i think it's more likely though that this sort of allegation here will just be a continuation

of trump's constant drumbeat of witch hunt against him. that resulted in the infamous john durham investigation, which came up empty-handed after the justice department inspector general found no misconduct in opening the investigation into russian efforts to influence the outcome of the 2016 election. durham himself did not indict anyone of significance. two cases he took to trial, both resulted in acquittal. if this is what he wants to call prosecutorial indiscretion, it's not going anywhere. >> a lately named aileen cannon is in florida. she approved trump's request for a special master following the fbi search of mar-a-lago last year. she has an opinion in these matters. what are the chances they end up with her? >> zero to none. the chief judge of that district will have some say in which

judge tries the case. it's unlikely it would be judge cannon. she got reversed twice in two months by the court of appeals. >> make it complicated. steve bannon was subpoenaed by the special counsel. he doesn't have anything to do with documents. what does that tell you? >> steve bannon, his dirty fingerprints, like mark meadow, are everywhere. the special counsel is interested in what he has to say. he is basically giving him one last shot to come clean about january 6, especially. so far, steve bannon has been one of these guys, like weisselberg, paul manafort, who would rather go to jail than tell the truth about donald trump. >> let's talk about mark meadows, joyce. cassidy hutchinson had damning testimony about him. he seems to be one of the people who thought he needs a pardon. he with will put this up. the classified documents, january 6, georgia election. he set up the call in which

donald trump said, get me 11,000 x number of votes. is he somebody who in theory is a witness or maybe was a potential target? where does he stand here? could he still be someone who might also get indicted, because he is seemingly involved in all the things? >> right. that's a question that's between meadows, his lawyers and the justice department. often as a prosecutor, you sit down with an individual who is involved in crime and you give them that choice. do you want to be a defendant or do you want to be a witness? that's the position that meadows is in. joy, what i remember hitting me so hard during the january 6 committee hearing was the testimony from cassidy hutchinson about mark meadows' burning documents in his fireplace, in his white house office. that's a remarkable, remarkable piece of incriminating information about mark meadows. >> very quickly, paul.

what are the chances in your mind that there are charges in both? something january 6 here that happens in d.c. and something that happens in florida? >> there could be federal charges in both. i think now doj seems focused on the mar-a-lago case. fanny willis is on the job. doj may be like, let her take care of january 6. >> we are watching. thank you very much. we could have done an hour on this. i had more. the number of the day is ten. ten. ten contenders for the republican presidential nomination. including the man whose boss was okay with him being strung up by an angry mob. we will be right back. our heritage is ingrained in our skin. and even when we metamorphosize into our new evolved form, we carry that spirit with us. because you can take alfa romeo out of italy.

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the race for the republican nomination for president is like a movie, with ten actors vying for different roles. we have two new players, mike pence and a billionaire from north dakota who happens to be a governor you never heard of, doug burgum. the leading man in this blockbuster is the guy who spent four years dividing the country by fuelling racism, hate and ripping apart democracy and is looking for a sequel to his presidency. what's weirder is that these supporting actors from ron

desantis to nikki haley to tim scott are vying for the lead but won't tell you why trump is a bad choice. then there's the original and dutiful supporting actor, mike pence, who earlier today announced his own presidential ambitions. his announcement in iowa was a back to the future version of the republican party, complete with a 1980 checklist of goals for the country like trickle down economics, more guns, more god and no reproductive rights. >> we will rebuild our military and make it fitted to the times to defend our freedom in an ever more turbulent world. we will end political correctness at the pentagon. here at home, we will champion lower taxes. we will extend the historic tax relief. we will reject radical propaganda and we will demand respect for our history and religious freedom. as your president, i will appoint men and women to our federal courts who will uphold all the god given liberties

enshrined in our constitution. first amendment, freedom of speech and religion. second amendment right to keep and bear arms. they will stand for the sanctity of human life. >> the '80s called. we told it we don't want it back. the only republican candidate willing to acknowledge reality is chris christie. a former trump enabler now viewed as a heratic. >> this show looks like it's on rereturns now. this is like watching "seinfeld." we have all seen it. the jokes aren't as funny as they were the first time we heard them. eight years ago it was amusing. you were entertained. i forgive you. but it ain't funny anymore. it's not amusing anymore. it's not entertaining anymore.

it is the last throws of a bitter, angry man who wants power back for himself. >> he ain't wrong. if the past few years taught us anything, it's the republican base cares more for fantasy than reality. joining me is olivia choy. and curt bardello. a former republican. i am going to you first. when i listened to mike pence, it sounded like a republican from the '80s. i want to go to chris christie first. not all heroes wear capes. sometimes they close bridges. he is a bad guy. he was an enabler. he did everything wrong when it came to trump. sometimes somebody has to say the thing. he said the thing today. >> i'm reminded of the phrase, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. that's how i view chris

christie. of all the people -- he showed that list of people who are running or thinking about running, none of them have actually done the job of taking on donald trump. they want to talk nonstop about joe biden. in order to get to joe biden, you have to beat donald trump. that's the only path that you have. chris christie is the only one doing that. >> let me play him saying how the other candidates treat trump like valdemort. >> we have pretenders. all around us. who want to tell you, pick me. because i'm kind of like what you picked before. but not quite as crazy. but i don't want to say his name because for these other pretenders he is for those of you who read the harry potter books, like valdemort. he who shall not be named. >> inherent in running for

president, when donald trump was the first one in, is you saying, he shouldn't be president. yet as he said, chris christie ain't wrong, the only one willing to say trump shouldn't be president up until pence today was him. >> absolutely. the only one willing to take him on. i'm loving this. i'm not going to lie. i want him -- >> i don't hate it. >> i want him to be the bull in the china shop against him. nobody else will. certainly my former boss won't. if you expect mike pence to take the gloves off, i don't see it. that's not who he is. my dream is to have trump, desantis, chris christie and pence. >> chris christie versus ron desantis, that ain't a fair fight. that ain't going to work. you said your former boss won't take on trump. there was one piece of his presentation today that i said, okay, mike pence. he kind of did the thing a little bit. here he is talking about what he did on january 6.

>> the american people deserve to know that on that day president trump demanded that i choose between him and the constitution. now voters will be faced with the same choice. i chose the constitution. let me say from my heart, i understand the disappointment that many still feel about the outcome of the 2020 election. i did relate. i was on the ballot. but i had no right to overturn the election. kamala harris will have no right to overturn the election when we beat them in 2024. >> you are not going to be president. that's a solid argument. that is an argument. he then went on fox news and back-pedalled and did the

opposite. can he sustain that? >> that was my favorite part was pointing that out. i like the fact that he put it out to the voters and said, this is a choice. the constitution or this guy. he is speaking to republican voters, which is important. that is really the choice here. >> it might be from 1980 something. >> you are probably right. the party that no longer exists. >> the other thing that no longer exists is intelligent campaigning among republicans. they said early voting and absentee voting are fraud. fox news, the republican national committee is rolling out a bank your vote nationwide campaign expected to encourage and activate republican voters on early voting and absentee voting. >> they figured out, after losing 2018, after losing the presidency in 2020, after under -- maybe attacking the thing that helps you have a tactical advantage -- as a former republican, when the

absentee vote was our thing. >> i will tell what you took us out was republican absentee voting. every single time. the thing is, they dropped it. trump said it's evil. can they re-educate a sea of voters to say, this thing we said is evil is good? >> no. there's going to be mass confusion. it's idiot -- the idea you would make it harder -- >> they made it harder. >> for your own voters. never mind the suppression for the rest, but your own voters to send mixed signals, misinformation is just dumb. >> they passed laws to literally make it harder. do this thing. we ain't going to make it easy. mike pence had two minutes he did well. we will give him that. thank you both. an arrest in the killing of

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by 30 years in prison, battery and two counts of assault. according to the sheriff's office, her claim in police interviews she acted in self-defense. she will have to prove that at trial. owens children had been playing in a field next to an apartment when she cursed at them, took the ipad one left behind as she ordered them to leave the field. then threw it and skates at them, hitting one of the kids, using racial slurs. owens, a mother of four, knocked on her door to address the situation. she was then shot white her 9-year-old son was standing next to her. a.j.'s mom had this to say about her daughter's legacy and what her grandchildren are now forced to endure. >> she had it all. >> yes.

>> she had love. she had compassion. our 12-year-old blames himself for the death of his mother because he couldn't save her. he couldn't give her cpr. his words was, grandma, grandma, i couldn't save her. i tried to give her cpr. i tried to give her cpr. >> a neighbor shared her porch security footage. showing owens' 12-year-old son frantically running to her door after his mom was shot, begging for help. i will caution you, this is tough to watch.

>> call 911. >> who shot your mom? >> joining me now is kim robinson jones, a.j. owens' best friend and godmother to the children and the family attorney anthony d. thomas. that was rough. kim, i'm sorry you had to watch that. i know how these sweet children are doing. is the process of trying to get counseling, getting them something to try to help them? because that little boy is a hero. he did everything he could have possibly done to try to save his mom.

he is a hero. he tried so hard. is there anything in place for them that's being offered, even by the city, to help them with counseling? >> joy, just to piggyback on what he said with him being a hero. i just want to express that he was the bravest child that i have ever known. he had to make every phone call to notify people of what happened to his mother. he called his grandmother. he called his aunts. he called his dad. i mean, i have never seen a child as brave as him. yes, there are services in place for them right now. trauma>> this is a traumatic experience they had to endure and then also grief. they were being as well for all four children. >> i mean, and he is 12. let's just remember, this is a

little boy. he's 12 years old. let me go to you anthony. i want to play this sheriff because the lack of interest right away after they knew that they happen to this -- nine year old was standing there did not arrest this woman, susan. here is what billy was, the sheriff, said about that. >> the way the laws are written in the state and this is what people need to understand. our hands are tied and law enforcement. in these cases, where we are instructed that we cannot make their arrest because we have to rule out whether the shooting was justified or unjustified. >> i mean, that is the fact of the florida law, right? anthony, stand around is essentially shoot first, ask questions later. >> that's exactly right, joy. so, in the state of florida, if a person says that the truth stand-your-ground, it's sort of something that comes in the

beginning and not necessarily what's considered an affirmative defense in the end. so, the sheriff has the obligation, of course, to find probable cause, based on his suspicion that, you know, he's got some evidence there to charge. and so, we believe he did have all that information in the beginning. he told me that he needed some witnesses, he got those witnesses, and there was still some time before he even made that arrest. they were thankful, though, that he did finally conclude to make an arrest. however, at the same time, it wasn't swift enough for the family. >> cam robinson jones, e.j. was your best friend. tell us about her. what was she like? >> aj was just, she was beautiful. she was this beautiful inside and out. like, she would give the shirt off of, you know, her back for you. she would go, you know, all out if someone needed something. just her infectious smile would just, you know, just laid up a room, you know?

i've known her since her first child, you know, was born and, you know, just to be a pivotal point in her children, you know, has she's growing as they grew, he didn't do anything for them, you know? she loved them, she sacrificed for them, you know? she was everything that a friend could be. >> and i know there was a gofundme. these children are going to need everything for their education taken care of, to be taken care of at home. do you have that information that you can tell us how people can help this family? >> yes, enjoy. so, there's actually a website that is set up for -- and it's www. justice for aj owens dot org. and on that website is a complete synopsis of how you can follow her story with, also, the gofundme link for the

children and their needs, and then there is also a petition on there because the family we are asking that these charges be upgraded from manslaughter to second degree murder. >> and i think we are out of time. anthony thomas. can that be done? is there a way to get those charges upgraded? >> yeah, you definitely can. it's upon the state -- to have that prosecutorial discretion. he can take whatever information he's gathered from the chair and then bring it more charges later. >> we will put the website for aj and her family up on our website. i will also put it on my social, so that people can find it. cam robinson jones and anthony thomas, thank you very much. we will be right back. , thank you very much. we will be right back. we will be right back.

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