thank you so much for letting substance abuse your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with melissa murray in for ari starts now. >> welcome to "the beat." i'm melissa murray in for ari melber. and we start tonight with breaking news. the special counsel has reportedly interviewed donald trump's son-in-law, jared kushner, in recent weeks as part of the january 6th probe. apparently they are looking into

trump's intent. "the new york times" reports that prosecutors have questioned multiple witnesses over the past few weeks, including jared kushner, and questioned them about whether trump had privately acknowledged in the days after the 2020 election that he had actually lost. the line of questioning suggests that prosecutors are trying to establish whether trump was acting with corrupt intent. remember, kushner also spoke to the january 6th committee last year. >> jared, are you aware of instances where pat cipollone threatened to resign? >> i kind of -- like i said, my interest at that time was on trying to get as many pardons done, and i know that, you know, he was always -- him and the team were always saying, oh, we're going to resign. we're not going to be here if this happens, as that happens. so i took it up to just be whining, to be honest with you. >> we also just learned moments ago special counsel jack smith requested a reply memo by trump

and nauta to delay the documents trial until after the election. he said there's no reason for the delay and says the request boreds on frivolous. joining me now, christy greenberg and joyce vance. christy, what is your reaction to this breaking news about jared kushner and his interview and performance before the grand jury? >> well, according to that reporting, apparently jared kushner said it was his impression that donald trump believed that he had in fact had the election stolen from him. it's not surprising that jared kushner would say that, and it's not surprising that the special counsel would be interviewing everybody close to him to determine both witnesses that are credible and witnesses, i suspect like jared kushner, that

were not so credible. >> so, joyce, jared kushner may or may not be credible, but he certainly seems to be very important to special counsel jack smith. why is he such a lynch pin to this potential prosecution? >> well, he could be important on a number of issues, melissa. for one thing, he was very involved in fundraising after the loss in the election, and if there are some indictment claims brewing about fraud in that process, he could be a very material witness there. but to christy's point, he's also a very interesting witness when it comes down to the president's state of mind, and of course i'll be a little bit legally nerdy with you -- under federal rule of evidence 704, witnesses can't offer their sense, their opinion on whether or not a defendant had a state of mind that's an element of the offense. but what kushner and other witnesses can testify to is what was the president told, who said

it to them? what did the president say? and so the prosecution can elicit all of that evidence and they can argue to the jury what it means in closing argument. when you have a number of people who are present while the president is told he's lost the election and early on he seems to make comments, and there's testimony that he did about losing -- and it's only after this scheme to raise money and the notion that there was another way to overcome the outcome of the election that those processes get under way that trump then changes his tune. it's an awfully good argument to make to the jury. >> so, with that in mind, joyce, this seems like jared kushner is really important here for establishing a major element of the crime. what does this move tell us about the status of jack smith's january 6th investigation? are we moving forward toward criminal charges in that case at any point? >> this is the sort of thing that you would probably do very late in an investigation.

for one thing, smith really knew what this testimony looked like before he took it in front of the grand jury in late june. he knew that because much of the testimony was available for the january 6th committee so. now what you're doing is locking down witnesses, putting them under oath in the grand jury before you indict your case. it really does look like a very late stage sort of exercise. >> excellent. christy, jack smith's been very busy here. he was also filing a reply memo to donald trump and walt nauta's request to delay this criminal trial, the mar-a-lago document trial until after the 2024 election. is this going to be the first real test that we have of eileen cannon's chops as a judge over a major criminal case? >> so, it's a really strong reply from jack smith saying that there's no basis here in the law to delay this trial and have no trial date. criminal defendants all the time, most of them have jobs,

and most of them have other professional schedules and lives, and that is not a basis to delay a trial and not have a trial date. similarly, one of the arguments that he really eviscerated in his reply was the argument that, well, under the presidential records act donald trump was entitled to these documents -- this is a novel theory. it's not novel. it's baseless. when it's baseless it means it's going to be that much easier for the judge to dispose an it. the discovery, that was another issue he took apart in his reply. he said we've given you everything, the unclassified discovery. we're making available the classified discovery as soon as you fill out the forms giving you clearance, what you haven't done. it's a strong reply. i would expect if judge cannon is following the law, which we expect her to, she'll set a trial date.

the trial date, that jack smith is asking for in december, and if not that, something not too far after that. >> what do you think, joyce, is this something where we're going to see judge cannon set a date in december, or are we going to see more time frittered away as we speak toward the 2024 election? >> i think christy is dead on the money with her assessment here. the speedy trail act requires judge cannon to set a trial date. trump zed for no trial date. that's just not an option under the law. if she complies with that request, jack smith and the special counsel's office will be off to the 11th circuit with a motion, probably a mandamus petition asking her to set a date and asking she be removed from further participation in the case. the problem you're setting up is the middle ground. what if she doesn't go along with the december date that special counsel asks for and does something january, february? what if it's not until june? and this is where the tremendous

amount of discretion she has as a federal judge comes into play. it's much more difficult to appeal a decision where she says, well, maybe they need a little bit more time to get discovery in place. that's why jack smith's motion here is masterful. we learned a lot of new detail about how organized and how parcelled out the discovery they've provided to the defendants is, making it clear that this isn't just a dump of hundreds of thousands of documents like trump and nauta's lawyer says it was, but rather very carefully organized to show them what matters and where to go first. and the question is whether aileen cannon will be persuaded or not by jack smith's motion. >> let's assume judge cannon is persuaded and does set a trial date of december of this year. what then is the next play for donald trump and walt nauta? who are the other defense moves that can be made to try to delay this trial until after the election? >> well, look, let's just be

candid -- they don't have a great defense on the law, so their defense strategy is delay. we'll see that start next tuesday when the judge holds a pretrial conference to deal with classified discovery. and at every step we'll likely see them ask for more time than the interests of justice necessitate them taking, and that will be the whole goal here. make sure the case doesn't get tried before the election, because if the american people hear the evidence, then trump is likely to be a loser, not only in the court of public opinion, but also in a courtroom which carries criminal consequences. >> what do you think? what are the standard moves that we're going to see here, christy? is it just simply run the clock out or substantive moves and defenses they can offer? >> i think it's both. i do think the number one thing they're going to do is try to run out the clock to try to get to the election so if trump or any other republican presidential candidate wins they can order the attorney general to dismiss the case.

but -- or potentially pardon him depending if there was a conviction. but putting that aside, i suspect once they start going through the discovery, there will be arguments about what need to be transparent. you already saw them in their motion saying, the public needs to know everything, but some materials are classified so there are going to be arguments about what should be disclosed to the public, to a jury, arguments about needing potentially other classified materials, whether or not the materials are actually still classified, whether they were potentially made public in some other source some actually these aren't so secret. a lot of nuances, i think, once they get into the weeds of reviewing the documents. i suspect that will also add to their delay strategy. >> and we will be watching closely. until then, christy greenberg, thank you for your insights and joyce vance, we'll see you back later in the hour. coming up, i'm going to interview the attorney behind the new lawsuit accusing fox news of defamation related to the january 6th insurrection. plus, i'll explain how a

supreme court ruling is already encouraging discrimination. and we have a report on how anti-abortion activists are trying to change the law in a key state to block popular opinion. all that and more when we're back in just 60 seconds. s. so, i got this app from experian. it's got everything i need to help my finances. got my fico® score, raised it instantly, i even found new ways to save. all right here. free. and fast. see all you can do with the free experian app. download it now. why didn't we do this last year? before you were preventing migraine with qulipta®? remember the pain? cancelled plans? the worry? that was then. and look at me now. you'll never truly forget migraine. but qulipta® reduces attacks, making zero-migraine days possible. it's the only pill of its kind that blocks cgrp - and is approved

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again, there's no evidence for any of carlson's aims. >> ray helps is one of the only people caught on camera that day encouraging people to break the law. did ray epps work or have any contact with any government agency. a man called ray epps. amysterious figure called ray epps. >> to be clear, epps did participate in january 6th. this video circulated among right wing groups that fanned the flames of this conspiracy. but there is no evidence that epps breached the capital building, and there is no evidence that he instigated the attack. nor is there evidence that he was working with the government. lawsuit also alleges that fox news is to blame for epps being at the capitol in the first place. it argues that epps was, quote, persuaded to go to the capitol after hearing election lies broadcast on fox. sounds familiar. helps and his wife say that this caused death threats, forcing them to move from their home.

some republican lawmakers have also peddled carlson's unfounded claims. >> if you don't arrest mr. epps as the reason behind it -- i believe you know what it is, and it i peers to me you are protecting this guy. >> on the 6th, it's not the proud boys who engage in the initial breach, it's ray epps. >> mr. epps urged them to tear down the barricades. a lot of americans are concerned that the federal government deliberately encouraged illegal and violent conduct on january 6th. >> the new lawsuit turns up the legal heat on fox, which is facing a season of accountability. the network has already settled two multimillion dollar suits with dominion and a former producer and, it is in the middle of a billion dollar legal bat really smartmatic. joining me now to talk about the lawsuit is michael teeter, a lawyer for ray epps. full disclosure, mr. teeter and

i know each other from law school. michael, big question for you -- as long as i've known you, you have been associated with progressive causes. you've even worked for democrats. and now here you are defending a trump supporter who's also an election denier. why is it so important to you that ray epps have his day in court? >> great to be with, melissa, and great to see you again. the answer is simple -- ray epps has been lie about time and time again by fox news to the fact that he has now had his life destroyed. truth matters, whether you're on the left, on the right, in the progressive circle, you're a conservative. truth ought to matter and, fox has prioritized their profits over backs, over truth, and over people's lives, and they should be held accountable for that. so, one thing that's really important here that distinguishes your lawsuit from the lawsuits filed by smartmatic and dominion is that ray epps is not a corporation, he's not a

public figure. how does that factor into the standard for legal defamation that you will have to meet to be successful in this lawsuit? >> you're right, because ray is not a public figure, he has an easier standard than smartmatic, than dominion did. he only has to prove negligence on the part of fox in spreading this pervasive lie about him that they did not research or really look into the facts the way they should have, and that's the sufficient standard we'll have to meet. it's much easier than a public figure would have to meet. >> a little easier on that front, but another aspect is you have to show that there's been reputational harm. is it a concern that the reputational harm that's been done to mr. helps is perhaps with other individuals who were involved in january 6th? is that going to play well if you get to a jury? >> i don't think it's going to matter because actually given that he's not a public figure, the damages are presumed. he doesn't have to demonstrate them, but he could. the consequences to his life have been significant. he's had to move, he's faced death threats.

he lost his business, he lost his home. we're talking about tens of millions of dollars in just economic damage as well as ten of millions of dollars in emotional damages and that doesn't include punitive damages we have been talking about. >> we do know a few months ago you issued a cease and desist letter to fox news, to which they were unresponsive. have they been more responsive since you filed this lawsuit, and if so, what are they saying? >> we have not heard from them. all we know is they did file an effort to remove the case to federal court. we don't know yet whether or not that's successful. depends on the timing of service, and we're looking into that. >> you've also argued in the lawsuit that tucker carlson, quote, made clear to his audience that he was not offering an opinion but fact, bluntly telling his viewers that this was a fact that epps was a government informant. let's watch that moment that you reference just to give our audience some context. >> i didn't want to suggest that

someone was a federal agent or informant unless i knew for a fact, because you really could get someone in trouble, right, if you're like, this is the guy. >> but we don't know. i do know for -- it's very clear that something very strange is going on with ray epps. we've named him repeatedly, invited him on the show repeatedly. i mean, don't lie to my face. >> michael, how important is this evidence? is this mere speculation, opinion, or was tucker carlson, in your view, actually reporting what he believed was fact and encouraging other people to view it as fact? >> let's start with the very straightforward answer, which is that it is a fact whether or not somebody is or is not a federal agent, you don't get to have an opinion of that. whether or not you think somebody is, you're still presenting it as a fact, which tucker did time and time again. he labeled him a federal agent. he repeatedly said the january 6th committee was covering up for epps, that they had been working for him, that

the government had been lying, that he was a federal agent. he made it clear he was speaking on a factual, not an opinion basis, but the question itself is a factual question, not an opinion question. >> one of the videos that carlson relied on in this is a video that shows your client at the capitol. it shows him whispering to another rioter. under oath that rioter testified that epps told him to calm down. however he has since walked back that story. "the new york times" said, carlson would point to other inconsistencies, he's changed his story, calling reporter tos say he lied for the fbi and that epps actual told him to pull at the barricades. is this kind of inconsistent testimony from a material witness going to be an issue for you as you pursue the lawsuit? >> it just actually demonstrates the damage that ray epps has faced because of the lies. ryan samsal had nothing to show for it other than to tell the

truth, he told the fbi the truth, which is ray epps whispered in his ear to calm down. that's consistent with videos we've seen of epps walking the line, telling people to step back, telling police officers we appreciate you, telling demonstrators we don't want anyone to get hurt. he made our point, we want to stand our ground. ryan samsal confirmed that to the fbi, and then only when ray became a victim of this conspiracy theory and a target of the right wing did ryan samsal decide to play into that as well. the question, which seems more believable? >> thank you for laying it out for school bus explain your side of thing. great to see you. >> you as well. thanks, melissa. later in the show i turn to a federal civil rights probe in what some say is a crisis at a hospital. plus, new signs tonight that a supreme court ruling may have opened the flood gates to

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we won't go! >> abortion rights supporters in ohio are accusing republicans of trying to subvert democracy. tonight early voting is under way on a controversial gop proposal that would make it harder to protect abortion rights in the buckeye state. the measure focuses on voter initiatives and ballot referendum -- successful ballot initiative from 50% of the vote to 60%. now, this is where it gets good -- there's currently pending on the ballot another initiative that would protect abortion rights in ohio by, quote, enshrining abortion rights in the state's constitution. 59% of ohio voters support this pending ballot initiative. the vote on that initiative is scheduled for november, but if this new proposal to raise the

threshold for votes is successful, supporters would have to secure at least 60% of the vote on the initiative in november. just think about that. even if a majority of ohio voters support abortion rights, 59%, the new gop proposal could stand in their way by requiring them to secure a bigger majority, 60%. and this is not theoretical. right now in ohio, abortions up to 22 weeks are legal. it is the lone abortion access -- oasis in the u.s. but a gop-backed six-week abortion ban is making its way through the ohio courts as we speak. the same kind of six-week ban that iowa republicans passed just this week. more broadly, republicans learned that when voters are perted to register their preferences directly through ballot initiatives, they largely support abortion rights, even voters in red states. since the fall of roe vs. wade,

ballot measures that protect abortion rights is passed in places like kansas, and ballot measures seeking to limit abortion rights in places like montana and kentucky failed. the new gop proposal in ohio would make it harder, much harder for ohio voters to use the process to protect abortion rights. joining me now to break it all down is mark joseph stern, senior writer for "slate", covers the courts and the law. mark, this isn't just about abortion rights. many are arguing that ohio republicans are also trying to subvert democracy more broadly. are they right? >> i think that's absolutely correct, because in states like ohio, the ballot initiative is sort of an escape hatch, a pressure valve for when the legislative process has malfunctioned, which it really has in ohio. the state has badly gerrymandered legislative maps. there's a total republican domination. so this goes far beyond just abortion, although that is certainly the key issue.

there are voting rights initiatives that a lot of advocates are considering putting up for a vote in ohio, and republicans want to sort of change the rules in the middle of the game to ensure that those don't go to a vote. so issues like voter i.d., voter suppression, access to the ballot. republicans want to keep that away from direct democracy, which is quite ironic and i think pretty perverse. >> very ironic given that in dobbs the supreme court said it was returning the abortion question to the people for democratic legislation, which this would seem to be. more profoundly this would raise the resch threshold from 50% to 60%, making it harder to use the initiative process to enshrine abortion rights in the state's constitution. is it going to pass? >> so it looks like this initiative is going to fail, which is good news i think for supporters of democracy. a big part of this is, i think, due to at advocates on the ground who have made it clear to

citizens in the state this isn't just really about some obscure mechanism for changing the law, that this is fundamentally about changing the rules in the game so republicans can keep abortion rights off the ballot or ensure that no abortion rights issue ever succeeds. also about looking ahead to the future to lock in gerrymanders republican rule and render the initiative process totally toothless, and this is something that we've seen in so many different states idaho, missouri, our home state of florida, as soon as ron desantis stacked the supreme court with conservatives, they started shooting down initiatives, keeping them from going to the voters, because they were afraid on hot button issues, include coming up, reproductive rights, voters wouldn't go the way republicans want. that of course is not how democracy is supposed to work. when there is an existential threat to a policy like abortion, the republicans fear they're going to lose, they're going to use every tool in the

tool kit to ensure voters don't get the final say. >> you already alluded to this a little bit, but are we seeing efforts from other republicans to export this tactic to other states? i know in mississippi they reinstated it but limited to everything but preproductive rights. what else are we seeing stopping from people from having their say? >> we've seen in florida and idaho these kinds of plays to keep questions off the ballot for no good reason. we've seen in missouri, the attorney general run interference to try to block an abortion rights initiative by claiming that it would cost the state $51 billion, which is objectively not true. and in michigan, recall in the last election cycle, michigan had a reproductive rights initiative and, the state board of canvasser his a group of republicans who tried to keep it off the ballot by saying that it had spacing issues. it wasn't spaced correctly.

there were too many double spaces and not enough single spaces. and the michigan supreme court ended up reversing them, but two republican justices on the michigan supreme court wanted to keep that initiative away from voters because there were not enough spaces. this is a pretty cynical ploy i think across the board. people in every different part of the power structure of the gop seem eager to keep this stuff away from voters, and again, quite ironic given that in dobbs, sam alito said more than 12 times, we're returning this issue to the people. turns out the people don't like what the supreme court has to say about it. >> who thought the assault on democracy would come from formatting? thank you so much for your coverage of this. we look forward to talking to you again about this. still to come, our report on the federal probe into what medical professionals are terming a human rights crisis in an american hospital. but first, there are new signs that conservatives on the supreme court have opened the door to discrimination.

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tonight millions of lgbtq americans are grappling with the supreme court's stunning decision on discrimination. the court's conservative super majority rules that despite a state's anti-discrimination law, the first amendment protects a christian web designer's decision to create a website for same sex wedding, this ruling created an opening, perhaps even an excuse for businesses to

discriminate. in michigan, a hair salon owner announced she'll refuse service. in texas, a judge doesn't want to perform same sex marriage ceremonies north carolina, lawyers for a catholic school says the ruling bolsters their reasons to fire a teacher because he married another man. that harkens back to jim crow and -- during oral arguments, justices sotomayor and jackson warned about what would happen. >> i don't know that we can say just because we have a religious objection to same sex marriage in the situation that wouldn't necessarily implicate religious objections to other kinds of situations. >> where's the line? i choose to serve whom i want if

i disagree with their personal characteristics like race or disability? i can choose not to sell to those people? >> back with me now is joyce vance, former federal prosecutor. so, joyce, i would love to know the same question that justices jackson and sotomayor are asking, what's the limiting principal? did the supreme court open the door for businesses to discriminate against anyone with whom they disagree? >> they opened a real pandora's box. this motion of the limiting principle, where does this ruling in 303 creative end the, just how far could it take us? i don't see the limiting principle here, at least not in the majority's view, and that's the real problem. does it go further with the lgbtq community? does it perhaps extend to other groups? could it be that folks with disabilities are the next frn tier? we just don't know at this

point. >> so that's a really important point. like, this could go further to threaten the right of other minority groups. it's worth noting that although there is no federal legislation that protects sexual orientation, there is a ton of state-level anti-discrimination laws that do provide protections community as well as other minority group. are these kind of laws on the state level threatened by this ruling? and are we going to see limitations on those protections? >> i think we have to believe that there's a risk that they are threatened, especially where those sorts of principles and state laws bump heads with religious rights. that seems to be the touch stone for this court, using religious rights to abrogate the protections that states have created for the lgbtq community. >> as you know, joyce, this ruling comes amid a broader push by conservative lawmakers to pass anti-lgbtq legislation.

just this year, they passed nearly 500 anti-lgbtq bills. how are these types of new laws faring in the courts? and what will the interaction of those laws with this new undermining of public accommodations law mean for the lgbtq community? >> many of these laws are new, and they fall into two primary groupings. there are laws that strip transgender youth of the right to access medical care, and there are laws that are trying to limit participation in sports when we're talking about the transcommunity. because these laws are so new, they're only just now beginning to work their way up through the courts. inevitably there will be a split in the circuits, and this issue will arrive in the supreme court. and i think that's when we'll find out if there is a limiting principle or if this is a runaway trend that will be used to strip rights, not just of trans people, but of the larger

lgbtq community in some states the strip the rights. >> we'll be watching. joyce vance, as always, thank you for your insights. next i turn to an important story -- a federal civil rights probe into an american hospital, touching on issues of life and death. fe and death. getting screened ♪ ♪ for colon cancer made me queasy. ♪ ♪ but now i've found a way that's right for me. ♪ ♪ feels more easy. ♪ ♪ my doc and i agreed. ♪ ♪ i pick the time. ♪ ♪ today's a good day. ♪ ♪ i screened with cologuard and did it my way! ♪ cologuard is a one-of-a kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45 plus at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. ♪ i did it my way! ♪

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and take back what's yours. learn how abbvie could help you save. family is just very important. she's my sister and, we depend on each other a lot. she's the rock of the family. she's the person who holds everything together. ♪♪ it's a battle, you know i'm going to be there. keytruda and chemotherapy meant treating my cancer with two different types of medicine. in a clinical trial, keytruda and chemotherapy was proven to help people live longer than chemotherapy alone. keytruda is used to treat more patients with advanced lung cancer than any other immunotherapy. keytruda may be used with certain chemotherapies as your first treatment if you have advanced nonsquamous, non-small cell lung cancer and you do not have an abnormal “egfr” or “alk” gene.

keytruda can cause your immune system to attack healthy parts of your body during or after treatment. this may be severe and lead to death. see your doctor right away if you have cough, shortness of breath, t diarea, severe stomach pain, severe nausea or vomiting, headache, light sensitivity, eye problems, irregular heartbeat, extreme tiredness, constipation, dizziness or fainting, changes in appetite, thirst, or urine, confusion, memory problems, muscle pain or weakness, fever, rash, itching, or flushing. there may be other side effects. tell your doctor about all your medical conditions, including immune system problems, if you've had or plan to have an organ or stem cell transplant, received chest radiation, or have a nervous system problem. it feels good to be here for them. living longer is possible. it's tru. keytruda from merck. ask your doctor about keytruda. we turn now to an issue that some medical professionals are

calling a human rights crisis. a new u.n. report reveals that black women are more likely than white women to experience serious complications or even death during pregnancy and childbirth. the report also says that women of color are more likely to be denied medication and face physical or verbal abuse from medical professionals. these health-care disparities are global, as the report suggests buck it's also clear that they're happening right here in the united states. the u.s. department of health and human services launched a federal civil rights investigation into the well-known seeders sinai medical center in los angeles over its treatment of black mothers who have given birth there. the investigation was sparked by allegations of discrimination surrounding the death of 39-year-old kira dixon johnson. she died at cedars sinai after hemorrhaging following the birth of her second child.

>> after allowing my wife to bleed and suffer needlessly while my family and i begged to treat her with dignity and respect. >> pregnancy related deaths are the highest in 60 years. >> if you're an african american mother, your risks of dieing in childbirth are three to four times higher than if you're white. >> my wife would be here with her boys if it wasn't for the color of her skin. >> kira's husband charles filed two lawsuits over her death. the hospital eventually settled. but there are still growing questions about racial disparities in the health-care system. joining me now to discuss it is charles johnson, the widower who filed the lawsuit that sparked those federal investigations, and dr. amanda williams, the clinical innovation adviser for the california maternity quality care collective. charles, first, welcome, and we'd love to know how you and your children are doing. [ inaudible ].

>> my apologies, everybody. so, thank you for having me, first of all, and doctor williams, it's always a pleasure to share space with you. thank you for asking. my boys are doing phenomenal. they are smart, they are hilarious. they have all of their mother's best assets. and so we're doing well. we're doing well. i never saw this as a path that my life would take, but we're doing our best to make kira proud every single day. >> and this federal investigation is proof positive of the way you've used this family tragedy and turned it into a moment of activism and advocacy for millions of other african americans throughout the country. what's your response to this investigation? what are your hopes for it? >> so, thank you so much. i really -- my hope first and foremost, i want everybody to understand just how significant this investigation is.

for those of you who aren't aware, hhs, the department of health and human services, is the department that provides federal funding to hospitals. this is the department that is investigating cedars sinai. and so what i'm hoping is they will i'm hoping is they will do an extensive, thorough investigation. they've already talked to me. they're going to talk to other families. they're going to see a lot of evidence. if they are able -- which i believe they will -- to establish a pattern of institutional racism at cedar sinai, their ability to receive federal funding will be in jeopardy. what does that mean? we all know that as we're working to solve these issues around discrimination, racism and bias, there's a lot of work being done on a lot of levels. we all know the thing that moves the needle the quickest in our country is dollars. so what i hope that this will send a loud message to cedars

sinai that these things cannot happen, but most importantly to hospitals all over the country that enough is enough, and we have to treat every single person that shows up for care with dignity, respect and prioritize their concerns hear them and believe them as their whole selves. >> to that point, dr. williams, the cdc says that black women are almost three times more likely to die from childbirth than white women. what are some of the factors that contribute to this disparity, and how can we address snit. >> thank you so much for the opportunity to be here. thank you, charles, for your ongoing advocacy. as he says, systemic racism is part of the story. this year, they published a paper with income matching with maternal death rates. even at the highest levels of income, still black mothers were dying much more than their

lowest income white mothers. we know this isn't an issue of access, this isn't an issue of necessarily insurance, this isn't an issue of comorbidities, though all those things are factors. ultimately there is systemic racism at play. doctors and nurses aren't bad people. they're not trying to do this. this is part of who we are as americans, and we need to disrupt how deeply en meshed medicine is with this history of systemic racism. >> you were nodding, doctors and nurses are not intending to do this, but these biases are baked in. do you want to say how this resonates with you? >> absolutely. i think one of the things that people mischaracterize about myself is that i'm by no stretch

of the imagination anti-doctor. i believe the majority of health care professionals are phenomenal people that have pure hearts and good intentions and really want the best for their patients. however, oftentimes they're working in systems that don't allow them to serve to the capacity that they would like, right? or there are a few doctors that are making it very difficult for the others to really lead with love and care for their patients in the way -- i really think that this investigation along with the work of so many people, i'm extremely hopeful we'll see a new day, not just in maternal health but in health care across the board. >> dr. williams, cedar sinai didn't comment on the investigation, but in a response to nbc news they said, quote, cedars-sinai clinicians, leaders and researchers have long been

concerned with national disparities in black maternal health and we are proud of the work we've done to address the issues. have they done enough? is there more they can do? >> i can't comment obviously on the investigation, but hospitals all over the state of california need to be engaged in equity work, and that is some of what we're doing at the california maternal quality care collaborative at stanford. we've put in lots of different tool kits, lots of different work flows, done collaboratives around maternal mortality issues, around hemorrhage, around hypertension, around heart disease. now it's time to take it to the next level and start looking at how inequities have been baked into some of those complications and start doing that work across the state of california and as an example for the rest of the country. >> charles john soond dr. amanda williams, thank you so much. mr. johnson, our condolences

again for your loss. >> thank you so much for that, thank you. >> we'll be right back. thank yo. >> we'll be right back it's not too late to show summer's who's boss. and wayfair's got just what you need. they have all the top grills and gear. with smoking fast shipping. and wayfair deals so epic... you'll feel like a big deal. yes! so get outdoorsy for way less at wayfair. ♪ wayfair, you've got just what i need ♪ my father didn't know his dad. with ancestry i dug and dug until i found some information. birth certificate. wow. and then you add it to the tree. it's like you discover a new family member. discover even more at ancestry.com hi, i'm todd. i'm a veteran of 23 years. i served three overseas tours.

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z. they better watch out. if the actors go out with the writers, this industry will be shut down. >> jane fonda delivered that warning to hollywood just two weeks ago, and today a big development. the hollywood actors guild voted to go on strike t. union joins the writers guild which has been on strike for over two months. it's the first time both the actors and writers unions have gone on strike at the same time in six decades. the last time this happened was when ronald reagan led the actors union. some big stars are already expressing support for the strike. before the vote harrison ford

said this -- >> i believe in labor. i believe in representation, all of those things. if my union votes to go out, i'll go out. >> among the actors' demands are pay increases and guardrails for the use of the artificial intelligence. that does it for me. you can catch me on my podcast strict scrutiny which is about the supreme court and the legal culture that surrounds it wherever you find your podcast. the reidout with joy reid is up next. tonight on the reidout -- >> i think his involvement is clear, and every drop of new evidence that emerges in the public arena only underscores that. all of it really manifested itself in a multifaceted, national, coordinated, illegal