out. >> he has raised privilege. i think we were headed down that road. >> thank you for taking the time as a legal analyst to go through the superseding indictment, and to make us smarter. i appreciate it. thank you. that does it for me. i want to thank all of our experts that we are recovering from his breaking news readout. this is all coming up next. good evening, everyone. we begin with breaking news in the multiples of accounts regarding donald trump. in the last hour, there have been big development in the classified documents case. they added a new charge against donald trump. one additional account of willful intention of hiding national information. this is alongside donald trump, and his longside valet.

this is the head of maintenance at donald trump florida resort. he moved boxes of documents from the infamous storage room at a key moment, one day before prosecutors came to retrieve those remaining classified documents. he's facing four charges. he's obstructing justice, concealing an object, concealing a document, and falsifying statements. according to the superseding indictment, one week after the emailed an attorney from donald trump's business organization, a grand jury subpoena required the production of certain security camera footage is from mar-a-lago. they had this conversation with another donald trump employee. quote, he told donald trump's employee, that the boss wanted the server deleted. he responded that he would not know how to do that. he did not believe that he would have the right to do that. donald trump's employee 4, told them that he would have to

reach out to another employee. he was a supervisor of security for donald trump's business organization. he insisted to donald trump's employee, that the boss wanted the server deleted. he asked what we are going to do. a lawyer for de oliveira, declined to comment. he's facing his third indictment as a former president. the result is them trying to throw over the very government he was presiding over. we are waiting from the d.c. grand jury. just today, down the street, two of trump's lawyers met with special councils in jack smith's office. it was at that meeting that donald trump's lawyers were to expect an indictment against the claimant. this is according to two sources near the nomination. smith, was present towards the meeting. as was according to sources familiar with the matter. nbc news has not confirmed with that. that is the last step before

any potential indictment would come down. a chance for donald trump's lawyers to make one more attempt at convincing prosecutors not to bring charges. neither donald trump or his lawyers are speaking out about what is happening. that did not stop donald trump from providing his take. cotton meetings are not productive. they didn't give any indication of what was pending during the indictment. law enforcement is preparing for that outcome. members of the u.s. marshals office, meeting earlier today with other members of law enforcement. this is outside of the d.c. federal courthouse. that is not the only courthouse preparing for a big, impending announcement. in georgia, barricades have been outside the courthouse, indicating something big might be happening there soon as well. district attorney willis, has determined that she will be coming to a decision about bringing it ahead in the weeks

coming up. host of the gray shell, white house, we have a senior member of the probe. ms nbc legal analyst, ryan wiley, is also part of the nbc news just as reporter team. i want to start with you. i am a slow reader. i'm on page 49, trying to speed read this indictment. i can tell you even as a layperson who never worked in the light of the white house like you did, this is not normal. the conversations that this new defendant, mr. de oliveira, was having, the two guys who seemed to be box movers and box hiders, was going into the i.t. guy. they were asking if the service could be deleted. the conversations about whether employees are loyal, or whether de oliveira would stay loyal, includes the new thing that i think is pretty good news.

the 32nd count against donald trump, we now know that the government has the documents that he showed off. that is count 32. i am just curious to hear it, even though i watch your show every day. please tell us what you make of all of this new information. >> you pull it out. what is so stunning, and i keep waiting for one of these guys who have been looking for hillary clinton's server to sue donald trump for loss of dignity, he wanted the server deleted. the content that has been revealed, but the depths of criminality is something that we will never unseat as a country. it is something that republican apologists will never unring that bell. there are still segments in right-wing media about hillary clinton's email server as a superseding indictment comes

out. donald trump's staff in mar-a- lago, or trying to figure out how to satiate the boss a desire to delete the server. this is where irony goes to die. he kept thinking, what was going to happen if he hadn't had appointed jack smith to investigate this case? what about the january 6th case? we may never see these inner workings of how donald trump are really committed his crimes. >> they are talking back and forth about the beautiful mind boxes. he's changing his plan. he's supposed to go to illinois with 19. he doubles back, and goes back to mar-a-lago, to meet with him. they go to the bushes, and go to the neighboring properties so that they can having authorization about the beautiful boxes. he wants his boxes. he wants them moved from place to place. this definitely looks like a cat and mouse game.

trying to hide what donald trump knew the government wanted back. is somebody working the white house, this cannot be how this works. former presidents can be red zoned from these classified documents. this is not how it is done. >> they make that clear in the first indictment. they talk about a waiver that could be applied for and granted. none of this was granted. the physical acts are so remarkable. they have the plucking out of donald trump. can you just pluck it out? he has his maintenance staff. we have different servers. for it to have been the fixation for the better part of 10 years, looking for hillary clinton's emails, and to see the brazenness, this is something that you guys talk a lot about. it is the end of a process of

nothing ever catching up with donald trump. grabbing women between the you know what, getting elected president of the united states of america. could people on both sides, they said they could get away with impeachment, and you get carried away with conduct. get away with those. try to stay on the election. now he says he is our retribution. this is quickly accelerating into this pattern of really brazen contact. >> could you explain to the fellow people like myself, a superseding indictment. i'm on count 40. this is very well written. the narrative is almost like in the flick special. this is against the unions. it has been read like a narrative trade we know donald

trump's guys are getting to do the dirty work. explain your superseding indictment, and why you think this is going to come now. why not before? >> superseding indictment's can add charges. in this situation, they added both. they added new charges. this is in respect to existing defendants. previously, donald trump. we have charges and allegations that are really significant. somebody says that they are not a speed reader, you are encapsulating everything that is really there. let me see why this is so important. we have the additional obstruction charges. they talked about this idea of

getting rid of the surveillance tapes. that is such devastating proof of both obstruction, and the underlying criminality. you didn't do anything wrong. this reminds me so much of the manifest, which we superseded. do you know what happened? he went to jail when that happened. the difference is that they have additional crimes and of section 1 he was out on supervised release. remember, you are going to have a defendant, donald trump, who is facing obstruction charges, and is about to get indicted in d.c. the issue for the judge on veil, is whether somebody is going to show up, and also if they are going to continue to commit crimes. i am not saying he is going to be remanded, but this is something a different judge

could take extremely seriously about the conditions of his bail, given that he is so clearly flaunting legal process. that is one issue. we have talked a lot about that tape recording. donald trump, is on tape, talking about what is happening. he's flaunting the attack plans. it was such a damning piece of evidence, it was described in the indictment. it wasn't charged. we are spending a lot of time talking about why it wasn't charged. we had a lot of speculation about them not having the document read they were holding it, and thinking they had to charge it in new jersey. it is an incredibly important tape-recording. what is the in style version of

that? they don't need to admit that into evidence. it is now just not another kind of evidence. this is becoming a much stronger case. it is already really strong. >> it was part of the waiting game. i was watching it right now. is something going to happen? is this happening? you have another injury meeting today. no charges are coming out about case number one. you have the superseding indictment, and additional charges for donald trump. a new character had been introduced by mr. de oliveira. you have georgia. they are putting up barricades outside the courthouse.

this seems to be an indication that they were at least prepared for something big. we know that he indicated that something might be coming. i don't understand how donald trump keeps their faces straight. >> i was previously going around the courthouse, trying to open doors if any of them were open. we looked at these different indictments. this is part of the courthouse. again, we went through this different direction. that will be coming out. this is especially with that meeting. as far as we know, tuesday is the next day we expect the grand jury to meet. we are seeing if there is any sort of special meeting set up.

this is a thorough and in-depth investigation. i did a lot of reporting from some of the justice actions after january 6th. looking at how those employees made decisions, we were looking at what decisions they were facing, and what they were ultimately doing for this lower- level trumpet employee. look at the people who were in the final days of the donald trump administration at the justice department. they had a pretty easy call. this was a morally correct decision. it was pretty easy to say that we don't want to go down with the ship. we are giving up two weeks of the paycheck. we are giving up the final few days. these employees and maintenance workers essentially were done. the pressure that they were under in the situation, as well as them being told by their boss and the entire livelihoods of the club, is astounding.

>> they have the most, to be honest with you. these are the valets. i think he worked as a sous chef with donald trump. i wonder having worked in a white house, knowing that there are these folks that gravitate around the president or a former president, can you make sense of these two men? at one point, it feels like de oliveira, is kind of running the show. they are deciding after having phone calls with donald trump, to implement this plan to hide the boxes. they seem so directed at a certain point. >> this is being put in place by donald trump. i think this is part of the story. most people won't understand.

this is donald trump's man in the white house. we believe the names of these lawyers represent others. we have all of these dealings with the justice department. we know where all the bathrooms are in the justice department. they will keep their clients out of trouble. in his case, minimal political carnage. these other workers work for donald trump still. livelihood, health insurance, all tied to that employment. they were directed by donald trump, and his attorneys. in terms of what happens next, it is really a story of donald trump preying on the dependence of all of these employees after they left the white house. trying to carry out their crimes. >> that is what is extraordinary. to me, a meeting with them

would be terrifying. the fact that they could look fbi agents in the face, and were asked very simple questions about knowing where boxes removed, they were asking information that he knows the answer to. he must know that this is the fbi. they have penalties for lying. you have somebody like this other gentleman. he is a low-level guy, facing what could be the end of his freedom. they still make these false assertions. they were lying for someone who wasn't even a real billionaire. at least in degree, has so much more power than they do. maybe one day, he will pardon them? there is no evidence of that. i wonder as a prosecutor, does it stun you like it stuns us that they would do it? >> unfortunately, it doesn't. i think that people think about

power relationships. they think about money, and they think about getting a job in the future. i remember they cooperated with us. now, what do i do? i am not with one group. how do i earn a living? how my going to put my hand in the circle, or my hat in the ring? they are very similar. he is doing the same kind of alleged lying. this is obvious, when he goes to the grand jury. donald trump, asks if he is with me. i'm going to get him a lawyer. i'm going to take care of you. having said that, it is important to know that people

don't make that choice. they have a potential for these qualifiers. they have a lot of information that they have. it is really clear that they are not participating. they are looking in the indictments. i'm not going along with this. that would be improper. >> this is where we are saying it at the same time. we could do this in tandem. cassidy hutchinson. she could have done the exact same thing. she has told it on video, on tv, and prosecutors for the january 6th committee. thank you for staying overtime. really appreciate you. thank you all very much. much appreciated. breaking news, the superseding indictment of donald trump. stay with us.

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we are back. joining us now, assistant watergate prosecutor. we have house selected january 6th committees. i do want to start with you first on these additional counts. speeding through, donald trump, the previous version of this indictment, ended at 31. this goes up into the 40s. we have new counsel against donald trump. they also had other counts. they had additional counts against others as well. how much of this have you been able to go through? how do you make these new charges? it does give new narratives about what really does look like a hide the ball from the government case. >> i would call it a favorite game of mine. first of all, how powerful is the original indictment?

this is absolutely a blockbuster. it is amazing. not only in terms of crimes committed, but in terms of the authoritarian tactics that donald trump used in this attraction. this is what happened in watergate. the cover-up, the construction, the concealment, i have to think that i am not ever enough. could this be the straw that breaks the camels back? is this how they say richard nixon is a crook? he is terrible. he is not helping us. he is acting in his own regards. it is the flooding of the place where the storage was. it happens right after all of this. it is done by the person who is now also indicted.

it is really a great story, well told. it would be very powerful in front of a jury. i hope we finally get cameras in a federal court. that is something that everybody should see, especially with donald trump supporters. >> i wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen. i think the thing that marries this case to the january 6th potential case, which you think is imminent, is the lower level functions from doing the work. donald trump, calls the tune. they do the dance. they could go to jail or prison. i do not see any way out for them. they are going to jail. there is a connection between these two cases. we had white house valets. he was a president in the white

house on january 6th. we did not have access to that valet. they were prompting them to cooperate with special councils. he would have information not just about the pending indictment about classified documents, but potentially having important information about january 6th grade we did not talk to every low-level and safe. these people had incredible responsibilities. we can talk to all of them. he might have information about that as well. you are exactly right. there is a pattern of the president directing the actions of others. it happened with respect to january 6, and with the classified documents. closing directions were issued. as you mentioned before, they are generally credible. they were very loyal to him supporters. they had appointees of the

administration. that was credible. >> that was what was so extraordinary about the january 6th hearings. you weren't hearing it from democrats or from donald trump supporters. you are hearing about people who were loyal to him, who worked with him, who were different all the way in some cases after that was the final straw. even with hutchinson, these were people who were under enormous pressure to stay loyal. they had implications that there was an attempt to eliminate her and intimidate her. she had to get different lawyers that were not part of donald trump's world in order to free herself to speak to you all. i wonder what you make of the ongoing loyalty of these people. they seem to have tremendous jeopardy. particularly, in this classified documents case. everyone who has been charged with is who isn't a former president, they have been convicted. the government has a good record on this. >> really hard to say what motivates individual decisions.

what often happens in criminal investigations, is that charges prompt discussions of cooperation. there may not be much interest in advance, but once there is superseding indictment involved, and the lawyers evaluate the discoveries, and the government shows the cards, that creates really strong presser. lower-level people have a very obvious card to play. this is cooperation, in exchange for the prospect of leniency. i don't know whether this new defendant will be in that position, or make that decision to cooperate. just because they haven't thus far, doesn't mean they won't between now and then. it only gets more insignificant if they have more setting up trial dates including cooperation. >> this is a new superseding indictment, that charges donald trump. this also includes carlos de

oliveira. this is on or about june's 22nd, 2022. in or around august 2022. this was in palm beach county. the southern district of florida, donald trump, de oliveira, had intent to persuade another person. they were trying to conceal an object with intent to impair the object's integrity and availability. that was the attempt to hide the documents. they have the narrative part of the indictment against de oliveira. just over two weeks after the fbi discovered classified documents in the storage room in donald trump's office. august 26th, 2022. they called donald trump employee 5, and said someone just wants to make sure that carlos is good. in response, the employee said that he was loyal. he would not do anything to affect his relationship with donald trump. that same day, at his request, donald trump employee 5 had a single chat group. they had another

representative. he was loyal. that same day, donald trump, called de oliveira. he told him that he would get him an attorney. it does seem the attempt to a keep style team. they are trying to sober his mind. we are trying to look at these additional charges that might sober his mind as well. >> the answer, is that it should. i cannot believe that his attorney wasn't informed by the prosecutors who were ready, and looking at what they had in the attempt to flip them. that makes sense why this is a superseding indictment. they know why he wasn't indicted from the beginning. they were still hoping that he would flip. if he does, we are also looking today at mark meadows. maybe mike pence, eastman, or even clark. we have a whole group of people. i will use a poker analogy.

this is like putting a seven letter word on the triple in a game of scrabble. the power of this combination of witnesses, are unfolding with donald trump. it would be amazing. even with what they have now, employee four, employee five, with the text messages they have, there is really good, solid evidence that could convince any jury in a courtroom where they are charged with making a decision based on the evidence in the courtroom. i hope it will also convince voters who might otherwise have considered voting for donald trump, to say that we cannot have this person. maybe it would convince the republican leadership to turn away from him. >> we shall see. very hopeful, positive, tip of the hat. thank you very much. much appreciated, both of you. of next, i will be interviewing officer harry

dunn. one of the heroes of january 6th. we will be right back. liberty♪

alex! mateo, hey how's business? great. you know that loan has really worked wonders. that's what u.s. bank is for. and you're growing in california? -yup, socal, norcal... -monterey? -all day. -a branch in ventura? that's for sure-ah. atms in fresno? fres-yes. encinitas? yes, indeed-us. anaheim? big time. more guacamole? i'm on a roll-ay. how about you? i'm just visiting. u.s. bank. ranked #1 in customer satisfaction with retail banking in california by j.d. power. january 6th was not a victimless crime. 150 officers were wounded. several died in connection with insurrection. they were our last and only line of defense on that awful day. what they endured should never be forgotten. a potential indictment for the former president, represents the last and final step towards real justice and accountability. joining me now, the offer of

the upcoming book, "in my ground." they are in good trouble after january 6th. good to see you. >> let's go through this a little bit. the biggest question for me, as we all kind of weight and weight, we are trying to see what this grand jury is going to do. it seems likely that there will be an indictment out of jackson on january 6th. this is part of the situation. for you, what does accountability look like? >> good to be here with you. it has been a while. we are looking at this indictment. it is a step towards justice. what is the indictment? it is holding somebody accountable for their crimes. it doesn't stop there. it goes to a jury. they have been finding them

guilty. the indictment happens. donald trump wins the election. just because you got the indictment, justice has been served. this is the guilty verdict. this is a mile marker on the way. >> this is the way. >> 933 things. >> does it frustrate you with how long they are working diligently against work? does it frustrate you how long this whole thing is taking? >> yes. a short and simple. it absolutely does. i'm not an investigator, but this crime that has happened, is a huge crime. just look at how many webs are entangled in this crime.

it is here in d.c. everything is intertwined. the undertaking is huge. it is taking so long. i'm looking at justice and accountability for what happened that day. we are looking at the classified documents as americans. this is personal. this is accountability and justice. >> we are watching this go forward. they actually lost their careers as a result. we have other injuries. they are allowing him to pursue his career choice. they know they have had the crap kicked out of him for doing the right thing. there is so much pressure on you all. we saw it. this was all in depth of what

happened to him. nothing was delayed. everything bad happened. it was the racism that you suffered. this is what they did. everything happened to you already. it was frustrating for all of us to watch. >> we have a few officers. they have so many names and faces that you know. they have left their job and hated their job. they are trying to retire and leave. i used to be happy to go to work. it has been stripped away from me. it is all about my responsibility. it is not a happy time. i used to enjoy it. i do not enjoy it anymore. this is what has remained. they cannot walk straight anymore. they don't have a full range of

motion in their arms. they suffer from ptsd. it is not a victimless crime. >> you had members of congress, who ran and were protected by you all. he protected their lives. >> they are justifying it. >> that is our job. that shows the pride that we take doing our job. they have independent, republican, to meta-credit, who cares? everyone has a job to do. whether it is someone who works at the grocery store, they were trying to have a big odyssey. bring a friend with you to the poll. help spread the word about election day. we need to get people in office that believe in taking democracy serious. they are truthful about what happened that day.

>> i still think about officer goodman. i'm just telling my kids he is black panther. he is running up the stairs backwards. you have donald trump as the front runner for the republican nominee. his fans account for maybe a third in every poll of the adult population of the united states, they do not need anything else justified. they are buying the song that donald trump was reported by people who are locked up right now for brutalizing police officers. what do you think of all of that? >> you can't exist. you need to take these elections for granted. they are going to vote. it is important for the people who disagree with them. they need to get out there, and have their voices be heard.

>> i wonder if you all have a group chat. are you able to offer each other the kind of support that the public feels for you all? are they not able to talk to you, or speak to you at all? do you have a support network that you have been able to create? >> you are expressing the frustration about this. we are there for each other. we know that we are there for them. >> we have to do a lot of stories about police doing the right thing. these officers are doing the right thing. this is what they are supposed to be about. >> thank you very much. i appreciate you. we will be right back.

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it forces republicans to claim enduring fields into the man, or they will keep their criticism under wraps. they really have no choice, do they? whether he becomes the nominee or not. former msnbc political and so low rowing on an endless stream of republican -- trying to be the same republican. but here's the thing, here's what i find so wild. it almost doesn't matter whether he's a nominee. because if he's not, whoever the nominee is is going to have to bow, save trump -- >> will loom live in a shadow. that's the other side of the narrative that no one wants to talk about. you want to push desantis out there, you want to raise up tim scott, hopeful, and then you talk about this one and that one. i'm like okay, when you do that, what do you think this trumpian base does? and more importantly, what do

you think donald trump himself does? does he then say who has usurped him, here is my base. take them. and let me help you become the next president of elated. states >> now. >> no, that's not how this works. this is has always been forevermore about taking control of a party that he knew he could park in the first instance. you go back to the videotapes from the late 80s or 90s when donald trump was asked, if you enter president, would you run as a republican or democrat? he said i was one is a republican. why? because it would be easier. >> yeah. it's an ideological shift. to your point, if the person who is the nominee, let's say it's chris christie, the whole trump base will stay home. they can't win numerically because the trump base won't vote unless you are loyal to trump. and then if he is the nominee, you can't win either because all the normals will be saying if we can't back him, he stole

classified documents. byron allowed him to someone rugby him on the head. all other conversation we claim they were going to make him speak, although that was then disputed later by his supposed sponsor, admitting, no, we just wanted him because he was black. he literally came out. he's a black man from florida, byron donalds, and try to mildly criticize the slaves benefited from slavery thing. and this isn't even trump saying it. it's desantis's policies. he got mowed down like the law on, because you can't even say slavery was bad now in the republican party. that's how far it has gone. and that's not even trump who read the policy, it was desantis. >> it is a profoundly important note to make about that moment with congressman byron donalds and desantis and the party writ large. here you have one of a handful

black republican members of the united states congress who are republican saying what he rightly should have said, this idea that black folks actually benefited from slavery is just crazy, right, but then desantis clap back in on him, but notice, none of those members that were pushing him out to be the next -- none of them came out they said you know what, don't west mansfield my boy, and he'd be, he's right. no one. so that again tells you about the trumpian narrative. you go into this space thinking you are locked arms in your are kind of moving the same way. you are not, baby boomer. you're not. >> your useful to your. not >> your useful until you're not, and that being not useful can happen as quickly as congressman donald recognized. >> if you reject forward, these are very serious. these classified documents

charges that have been added, this man used to low level people of color, let's just be clear, walt nauta and mr. de oliveira, use them to commit the alleged crime. i don't see what their defenses. they lied to the fbi. they move the boxes. de oliveira is the one saying to lead the tapes, stay loyal. it seems to be dead to rights. but still does on the base of the republican party not say why do you keep using low-level people to do your dirt? >> because the low level folks tend to be much more in awe of the trumpian era. >> he's not even a billionaire. >> right, but come on. the hype is in the room before he is. the reality, they see him, they work for him, more importantly they do work for him, he employs them, and what i think trump has learned over the

years, folks at that level, not the advisers, because he doesn't generally trust them anyway, he can trust them to do what he needs done. he can say to them, as was noted, how many times did not her tell de oliveira, hey, the boss wants this done. so that means we're doing it. versus what he was getting from his advisers, who were, like, if you do that i'm going to quit. >> right. >> so that was the whole fbi conversation. if you put this person in charge, you're going to have mass firings. >> that's right. >> because we're not gonna go along with what you want to do. trump has learned from that. his next administration, god forbid, we'll have more notches in it they're not. >> you're absolutely right. >> michael steele, thank you very much. we'll be right back. ht back. how are folks 60 and older having fun these days?

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that's tonight's read out. stay with nbc nbc for continued coverage of superseding indictment of donald trump. all in with chris hayes starts now. rump all in w>> good evening from ne. and jen psaki, in for chris hayes. a day that sign started with all eyes on the investigation into donald trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election, a huge deal, ends with a massive development out of the mar-a-lago investigation. for the past 12 hours have been an extraordinary reminder of just how much legal peril dong trump is facing. with all eyes on washington