she's historically felt unwelcome in, writing in part, the criticisms i faced when i first entered this genre force the me to propel past the limitations that were put on me, which some see as the reference to backlash she faced after performing at the 2016 cma awards. ♪♪ the houston native highlighting the immense historical impacts black artists have had on country music. >> it's almost a 200-year reclamation she is attempting and succeeding at pulling off. >> reporter: now with "cowboy carter," beyoncé looks ready to conquer yet another musical frontier. >> again in the words of casey dolan, our senior executive producer here, every song is perfect. not an exaggeration. that's going to do it for me today. happy friday, everyone. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪ hi, everyone.

it's 4:00 in new york with less than two weeks to go before he makes history by becoming the first ex-president of these united states to ever stand trial on criminal charges, donald trump is turning to a tactic straight out of a mobster's playbook. the ex-president going after the daughter of the new york judge, judge juan merchan, who is overseeing the criminal hush money case. in typical trumpian fashion, his attacks have been filled with foaming at the mouth, rage, and blusz ter, and conspiracy theories with a dash of disinformation in there for good measure. the ex-president accusing the judge's daughter of sharing a photo of donald trump behind bars on social media. court officials quickly knocked that down, but trump hasn't stopped going after the judge's daughter. he has posted about her at least four times since tuesday morning. trump's attacks began one day after judge merchan imposed a gag order on donald trump, prohibiting him from lashing out against witnesses, jurors, court

staff, and prosecutors although donald trump can make comments about the judge and alvin bragg. trump dancing around his gag order with an appalling attack on the judge's family is part of a pattern for donald trump. we who cover him are all too familiar with it by now. trump attacks anyone and everyone who's part of any process that seeks to hold him accountable, especially when he gets nervous about it. and inevitably, threats, intimidation, and even violence ensue. the situation is so dire and so troubling, so unprecedented, and such a deep and obvious threat to the rule of law that a sitting judge has taken the extraordinary step of speaking out. that's federal judge reggie walton, a stalwart conservative appointed by president george h.w. bush and george w. bush to the bench, has faced threats because of his work in handling january 6th defendants and their cases. here's what he had to say in

those extraordinary public comments just last night. >> it's very disconcerting to have someone making comments about a judge, and it's particularly problematic when those comments are in the form of a threat, especially if they're directed at one's family. i mean we do these jobs because we're committed to the rule of law and we believe in the rule of law, and the rule of law can only function effectively when we have judges who are prepared to carry out their duties without the threat of potential physical harm. >> now, without ever mentioning donald trump by name, judge walton pointed out that anyone with a platform, much less the kind of platform that comes with being an ex-president and the current presumptive republican presidential nominee, has a responsibility to be careful with what they say. >> i would think that any reasonable thinking person would appreciate that when they say things, it can sometimes

resonate with others. and i think that's particularly true when you have somebody who has status in our society and they make certain statements. it can cause people to act on those statements even if they don't necessarily intend for someone to do so. so i think it's very important that people in positions of authority be very circumspect in reference to the things that they say so that they're not causing others to act on what they say and maybe cause injury or death to someone as a result. >> even more direct, judge walton's former colleague, a friend of this show, michael luttig, who lamented that judge walton even had to do what he did there, go on television to defend the rule of law and the justice system from an ex-president, luttig tweeting this. quo, the nation is witnessing the determined delegitimization of both its federal and state judiciaries and the systematic dismantling of its system of

justice and rule of law by a single man -- the former president of the united states. never in american history has any person, let alone a president of the united states, leveled such threatening attacks against the federal and state courts and federal and state judicial officers of the kind that the former president has leveled continually now for years. but suffice it to say, never in history has any person leveled such attacks and been met with such passivity, acquiescence and submissiveness. a person who does not hesitate to target judges and their children is where we start today. former federal judge michael luttig is here. also with us, former assistant u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst glenn kirschner is here, plus msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin joins. and john heilemann is here. so, you know, it's time to do something different. like we're not going to have

this conversation again. i have come on the air with breaking news about requests for gag orders because of threats for judges and their kids more times than i could count today before i got ready. and judge luttig, i think it's time. i don't know who has to write the banners at the bottom of my show. i'm sorry in advance. but donald trump broke the rule of law. we should cover a broken judiciary in this country. donald trump managed to delay every federal criminal trial based on facts that he barely denies. donald trump managed to enlist the supreme court in a delay process, the highest court in the land. donald trump brazenly and repeatedly attacks not just judges. i've had the privilege of sitting across not just from you, judge luttig, but from judge esther salas, whose son was assassinated by a crazy person. judges don't have secret service protecting them. they don't even always have -- i mean her child answered the door. what are we going to do

different because donald trump sure as hell isn't changing? >> nicolle, thank you for having me with you this afternoon. first, we all should congratulate and thank judge walton for his interview last night, coming forward with the perilous state of the federal judiciary. it took great courage for him to do that. he is one of the first, to my knowledge, sitting federal judges ever to appear on television to speak about a need of the federal court system. we all have to understand that from the first time that the former president began his attacks, vicious attacks, on the federal courts and the state courts and their individual

judges, his objective was to delegitimize those courts so that when and if they ruled against him in the various matters that he's been charged with, then at least his followers, if not a good part of the nation, would dismiss those rulings against him as having been politically inspired and motivated. in particular, in most of these instances, politically inspired by president joe biden and his administration and merrick garland and the department of justice. that led into what we have today, which the fact that the former president is now actually campaigning for the presidency again on the delegitimization of america's institutions of

democracy and law. now, he's the only one at the moment who's claiming that those institutions are no longer legitimate, but many and many of his followers believe it today, and they will cast their votes in favor of donald trump in november on the basis that our institutions of law and democracy are no longer functioning. that's the tragedy. that's the tragedy that the nation faces right now. we've acquiesced in that to date. acquiesce meaning no one, not single person in a position of responsibility to address this issue has done so for want of courage and want of will. and until or unless we as a

nation address this issue, then we're careening toward the effective end of the rule of law in america. >> well, i mean, judge, let me press you on that. i think acquiescence and passivity are the words that captured my attention in your tweet. trump has achieved the mission of delegitimizing our elections. steve kornacki's analysis of the exit polls from super tuesday suggest that anywhere from 58% to 65% of republicans who participated on super tuesday think donald trump won in 2020. donald trump uses the criminal actions against him as prod to raise money and to raise fervor, and he's already delegitimized the criminal prosecution and the criminal justice system, frankly in a manner more successfully than any professional mobster. i mean the reason that some of

the safeguards exist in the criminal justice process is because even a hardened criminal is interested in serving less time. trump isn't. he's interested in winning and then pardoning himself. so there are no levers inside american criminal or civil -- i guess the money maybe is one of the levels. but in the criminal justice system, there are no more levers to press when it comes to trump. how do we adjust and adapt? >> well, you're exactly right, nicolle. as i've said over the past month, donald trump has largely succeeded in delegitimizing both america's democracy and elections as well as its constitution and rule of law. now, to your reference to a mobster, make no mistake. a mobster could never pose the threat that donald trump poses

to american democracy and the rule of law. it's the fact that he was a president of the united states of america and is now attempting to delegitimize america's democracy, the constitution, and the rule of law. that's the existential threat that faces america today. >> you know, i don't know judge merchan. i don't know his daughter, and i would never lay onto them any perceived reactions to these threats. but i am a parent, and you are a parent. and anyone that threatens your child, it is a terrifying and paralyzing reaction that any parent has. and that is -- you know, we give these individuals space, and we don't platform the attacks, but i think we're post-platform. so i'm going to make the decision to read the attacks on

judge merchan's daughter. trump posted this to his millions of followers. quote, judge juan merchan is totally compromised and should be remove trd this trump non-case immediately. his daughter loren is a rapid trump hater, who has admitted to having conversations with her father about me, and yet he gagged me. she works for crooked joe biden, kamala harris, adam shifty schiff and other radical leftists who campaign on getting trump and fund-raiser off the biden indictments. including the witch hunt. former d.a. cy vance refused to bring this case. that has been disseminated, judge luttig. that is out there. what, in your view, is the appropriate response? >> that, nicolle, is the republican party's nominee for

the presidency of the united states in november of 2024. the republican party has enabled donald trump up to this point, for the past 3 1/2 years, and it's determined to enable him for the next eight months until the election in november. at this point, it remains to be seen, at this very, very late point, nicolle, it remains to be seen whether donald trump will prevail in his standoff against america, its constitution, its rule of law, and its institutions of law and democracy. that is an incredible statement to have to make. >> i mean, john heilemann, i feel like some of it is on us, right, because we have political conversations, and you're one of

the few people who's part of both of them. but the legal process was trump's political message, and maybe for too long we covered them, right, and the sanctity of the legal process is let's not politicize it, but trump didn't separate them. when you look at the numbers of people who think the elections aren't legitimate, the elections are probably even higher on the rule of law in the courts in america. >> well, right, nicolle. and this has been my question that i ask to people like judge luttig and anybody else who has an actual law deck, unlike me who is both blessed and cursed for not having one of those. but, you know, it's always been clear, we've been debating the question of gag orders. what would trump get slapped with in these various cases? and we knew he would act out, that he would use his platforms to attack potential jurors,

judges, judges' families, and there was no way that was going to stop, and it was not ever going to stop. there was never a world in which a gag order was going to stop donald trump. he was going to do this thing, and he was going to dare the courts to either slap giants fine on him or hold him in contempt and send him to jail. and my question to the lawyers has always been, you really think that's going to happen? do any of these judges -- are they going to actually do that, or are they going to be, for one reason or the other, because they are enthralled to precedent, they think that they're still living the old world where their courtroom is sanctified and is a place where the law is all that rules in the courtroom? they've never dealt with a thing like donald trump before, or they think that somehow trump will use it against them if he puts them in a jail and say he's

having his first amendment rights squelched, and that will backfire in some way. i don't know what goes on in the minds of the judge, and what i heard judge luttig say is 100% true and not really an answer. because we are going to see trump do this over and over again in every one of these legal cases. so the question i ask again to all the lawyers is what is it going to take for a judge to finally say, enough, and either level a giant fine against trump or take the step that is within their power in these circumstances if he violates a gag order and toss him in the pokey for some period of time? what's it going to take? are we ever going to see that or not? >> lisa rubin, you want to answer that? >> it's a really difficult question to answer. i'm not sure we're going to see that. but i'm also not sure that issuing a further gag order is necessarily the answer here. i had a conversation earlier today with michael cohen, who as we all know is a known witness in this upcoming case before

judge merchan, and is a person covered by this existing gag order, right? we can talk about all the ways in which judge merchan and his daughter are not currently protected and michael cohen is. and michael cohen's point to me was, if you think that the gag order changes the universe in which i live as a witness and a known enemy of donald trump, you've got something else coming. i walk down the street every day in fear. i get death threats every day because i am a person known to be involved in this proceeding. and the fact that he can no longer speak out against me even if he abides by that order doesn't change the daily existence for me and my family. so not only do i want to say to john, i don't know what the answer is, but i will tell you that even further expanding the mechanisms we already have doesn't seem to be an answer for those people who are already protected because for them, the damage has already been done.

and that's because the real threats here now are coming from -- i think about three words. they are abigail sharai. she's the one who called tanya chutkan's chambers and made a threat to her voicemail that it is so ugly that i won't repeat it here except to say ms. sharai is now under indictment herself. we used to live in a world where the threats to judges were from actual litigants before them. that's the situation in which judge salas found herself when her son was murdered by somebody who had been a litigant before her. this was also the case in the case of federal judge joan lefkow, who's husband and mother were murdered by someone who had been a litigant before there. years before then, there was a federal district judge in new york who was murdered in his backyard by the father of a woman who had a sex bias case

against him that he had dismissed. but we're far afield from that now. the threats to judges and their families are now longer even coming from actual litigants. they are coming from adherents to every word that those litigants utter and words that they might not be uttering at all but people in their universes are uttering as surrogates on their behalf without any fingerprints on it, without any even overt encouragement or direction. that's the atmosphere in which we're living now, and i fear that the gag order itself is insufficient for the times in which we live, nicolle. >> glenn kirschner, donald trump made a mockery of an insurrection. donald trump made a mockery of the mueller investigation. donald trump has made a mockery of every institution he's touched or talked about. he has now made a mockery of the rule of law, and i wonder what you think the rule of law and those care about it do in

response. >> you know, there actually is an answer to this problem. there is a solution, but none of the institutions of government, none of the judges, none of the prosecutors have thus far been willing to do it. in 30 years, every sentinel time i had a grand jury return felony charges against the defendant, i had a decision to make. i had to decide whether to file a motion for pretrial detention. the only factors that entered into that decision were, is there clear and convincing evidence that the defendant is a danger to the community or even one person in the community? if the answer to that question was yes, i was obliged to file a motion for pretrial detention. i was obliged to do it to protect the victim. i was obliged to do it to protect the community. and i knew that it was a lawful vehicle to mitigate the danger. no institution of government, no

judge, no prosecutor has been willing to apply that law the way it would be applied to you, me, everybody on this panel, and virtually everybody else in america who wasn't named donald trump. i maintain donald trump is the single most dangerous defendant who's on pretrial release in the united states of america. he's a danger to the community. he's a danger to the witnesses. he's a danger to the jurors. he's a danger to the judges and their staff. he's a danger to the prosecutors and their staffs. he's a danger to the family members of all of those groups. and thus far, the institutions of government and the good people that populate those institutions have been willing to sacrifice the safety of all of those people. indeed, they've been willing to bet the future of our democracy on it rather than hold donald trump accountable as the law provides in the pretrial detention arena. that is the solution to the

problem. i think, nicolle, part of the challenge is donald trump almost has too many criminal cases up and running at the same time, and there are four judges and four teams of prosecutors saying, well, you know, maybe one of the other judges or the other prosecutors will apply the law of pretrial detention as it was designed to be applied. and thus far, nobody has applied it. >> he's benefited from doing a volume business of garbage creation. no one's going anywhere. we will keep this going. trump has just filed his legal challenge to this gag order. we'll tell you about that. still more to come for us. more from last night's big fund-raiser in new york city. three presidents unifying around a single message that has a whole lot to do with what we're talking about, protecting our democracy, and making the argument that donald trump should forever remain far, far, far away from the oval office. we've got a never-before-seen bit of president barack obama's comments on these topics from

last night. we'll show it to you, and why he continues to be the absolute best surrogate out there for his former number two, now president joe biden. we'll play it for you in a moment. and later in the show, in another sign of the disgraced ex-president's specific plans for retribution should he prevail in november's general election, we'll show you what one of his top allies, steve bannon, says should happen to all of his critics and democrats. all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. in adults with chronic migraine before they even start. it's the #1 prescribed branded chronic migraine treatment. so far, more than 5 million botox® treatments have been given to over eight hundred and fifty thousand chronic migraine patients. effects of botox® may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of

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as if on cue, trump's attorneys have filed their motion challenging the gag

order. we're back with judge luttig, glenn, lisa, and john. lisa, tell us what you're learning. >> so, nicolle, earlier in the hour, we were talking about some posts that trump made earlier in the week. there have at least been four of them about judge merchan's daughter. there was a general consensus in the legal community that the existing gag order did not cover judge merchan or his daughter. however, in the wake of those posts, it appears that the district attorney's office had gone to judge merchan in a filing that has not yet been made public and asked him, according to this new letter from one of the former president's attorneys, to confirm or clarify that the gag order indeed covers judge merchan's daughter. in this letter that they just sent and made public, they have said not only does the existing gag order not apply to judge merchan's daughter, but any effort to expand it should not happen until after full briefing and would be inappropriate in any event as a prior restraint

on former president trump's free speech rights under the first amendment. and then, nicolle, most chillingly, they take a swipe at judge merchan's daughter, saying that the constitutional problems -- and i'm reading from the letter -- attendant were any additional improper restrictions on protected campaign speech would not only implicate first amendment rights that belong not only to president trump but to the public, but are especially offensive, and this is the quote, where the family member referenced in the pre-motion letter, referring to the letter sent by the d.a. apparently yesterday, is actively supporting adversarial campaign speech by president trump's political opponents. in other words, his attacks on her are justified according to them because judge merchan's daughter is an employee of, if not a leader of, a digital strategy firm that works with democratic candidates and democratic-affiliated causes. they say that that means that she should be fair game here, nicolle.

>> john heilemann, i hope every ceo in america is watching, especially the couple billionaires who just threw in with donald trump all their little chips because if any of them have kids or grandkids that may someday get a job at a digital data company that may someday do work for a democratic mayor, governor, member of congress, this is what their life will look like. >> oh, and nicolle, i think you're drawing the boundary lines there way too narrow. i think anyone who ends up as a son, daughter, granddaughter, grandson, cousin, nephew, niece, anyone, maybe a friend, especially a family member, who's working for any firm that trump perceives as being adversarial to his interests. it doesn't have to be a democratic firm. it could be a republican firm full of what he would call rinos and traitors. this is not just a war on the democratic party as we know. this is trump's campaign of retribution in his ever

expanding degree ambit of attacks encompasses everyone who's not maga. everyone who's not maga. i had a conversation last fall with steve bannon who basically said, if you won't stand up and say that the 2020 election was stolen, you're not welcome in the maga movement. and the maga movement is now the republican party. so that is not just democrats. you're talking about a big sweep. and if you think about those ceos around the country, nicolle, ceos who are republicans in name only, who don't really like donald trump very much but they like joe biden less, and they're willing to kind of tolerate trump for maybe another four years, all of a sudden you're talking about an awful lot of people with an awful lot of family members who be employed by some organization somewhere that donald trump doesn't like. i would say the message is pretty clear to them, which is look out. >> judge luttig, this is all of our own doing, right? republicans chose donald trump again, albeit as not as many as chose him the last two times.

in terms of what the rest of us do, now all of the authors of books on tyranny and dictatorships and the slide toward authoritarianism, what they describe is so eerily familiar to every single news cycle. let's lead with a gag order. let's lead with the fact that no one's going to do anything because it's radioactive to stick him in jail. we have the conversation, and it's so similar day after day. how do you break a fever like this? >> nicolle, donald trump has bludgeoned america into submission to his will over the will of the constitution and the american people. it's just that plain and that simple. the only way to break that is through the rule of law, the constitution and the rule of law. until or unless the courts of

the united states apply the constitution and the rule of law to donald trump, then i don't see a way out of the predicament that the country finds itself in today. so the federal courts, they are constitutionally incapable of controlling donald trump. never before in american history have they seen anyone like him, and the constitution never contemplated a defendant like a former president of the united states in the person of donald trump. until or unless the courts wrap their head around that idea, and apply the constitution and the laws of the united states to the former president, then the only way we get out of this is by a vote of the american people in

november. >> i mean, glenn, you know, i'm weary of asking where are the prosecutors? where was merrick garland? where is the rule of law? why is trump treated in a class, in a league of his own? and i guess my question for you is what extraordinary information or what extraordinary messengers do you think should come out and talk about what judge luttig is just talking about? this is a break-glass moment, and if the american people are the only ones with agency -- ask -- but what is sort of the extraordinary conversation that makes sure that the public and the voters, who are the only ones with any agency at this point in the cycle have all the information and evidence before them in november? >> it's a great question.

we're all frustrated, and i think we're at a loss, nicolle. i don't know what it will take to sort of prod the rule of law into wakefulness such that it's applied to donald trump the way it would be applied to any other defendant who was, for example, threatening the witnesses against him. that person would be detained pending trial and even beyond that. i've had defendants who once detained pending trial were using the jail phones to call out to the streets and try to get his criminal associates to get after the witnesses, so the confinement facility would cut off phone privileges. they would then mail a letter, use the u.s. mails to try to get after the witnesses from jail, and their mail privileges would be taken away. you know, donald trump is every post when he names and criticizes a perceived enemy is no different than sending the signal to the streets that there are witnesses that need to be

dealt with. and donald trump knows that. i was in court during the argument in d.c. before the d.c. federal circuit court of appeals on the gag order, and donald trump's lawyer argued to the pre-judge panel, well, donald trump's not responsible for what his supporters do after he posts something. and one of the judges cut the lawyer off and said, are you kidding? there is a clear pattern that has emerged. donald trump posts a witness's name, and threats ensue. so i maintain that we do have the tools in the criminal justice system to address this. but what it will take people to get those tools out of the toolbox and use them, i mean you would think one attack on our democratic process on january 6th, the insurrection would have been enough to prompt us to dig into the toolbox. but then donald trump goes on air and says, you know, setting aside what may happen in the

auto industry t will be a blood bath if i'm not elected. that is not him ruminating. that's him sending a signal to his supporters that i am expecting a bloodbath from y'all, and yet the systems of government respond with a yawn and a shrug. so i think we're all at a loss. >> you are all extraordinary for having this conversation on this day with me. thank you very much. john heilemann, lisa rubin, glenn kirschner and judge luttig, who wrote the tweet heard all around the world. thank you so much. up next for us, turning to politics, democrats last night coming out as one unified party on why four more years of joe biden is the best bet for the united states of america and continuing to keep america a democracy right now. we'll show you some of last night's big campaign messages and speakers when we come back.

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passions get stirred by what we're against, and joe is absolutely right that we've got not just a nominee but frankly a party and an entire infrastructure that increasingly seems unconcerned with the essence of america. the idea of self-governance and the possibilities of us all cooperating and bridging our differences and moving forward.

but we also have a positive story to tell about the future, and that is something that joe biden has worked on diligently each and every day on behalf of working americans, and i expect him to continue to do that for the next four years and eight months. >> about last night, that was former president barack obama doing his thing. he's still the best at it. political messenger on behalf of his former vice president. this political moment is one that stories suggest he's acutely aware of. he's committed to doing everything in his power. in that clip, he puts it rather diplomatically that one party, obviously the republican party, is increasing concerned with the american essence or american ideals like democracy while also highlighting the major accomplishments of president joe biden, his former vp. the remarks took place at that star-studded biden campaign fund-raiser. it was moderated by late night

host stephen colbert. it also featured former president bill clinton. the event stood out as a display of party unity and strength. it stood in contrast to the disgraced ex-president, who is struggling to win over voters in his own party, like those who supported nikki haley and her supporters, who are a lot of them saying they will not back trump in a general election. so in a brand-new ad, president biden is reaching across the aisle to those voters directly, using trump's own words against him. watch that. >> bird brain. i call him bird brain. nikki haley has made an unholy alliance with rinos, never trumpers. americans for no prosperity. she's sitting there like -- she's gone crazy, and she's a very angry person. she is not presidential timber. i don't need votes. we have all the votes we need. she's gone haywire. there aren't that many never trumpers anymore. >> how do you bring these nikki haley voters back into the tent?

i'm not sure we need too many. >> joining us is the president of the national action network, the reverend al sharpton. also joining us, msnbc political analyst mara gay. it is true that trump has a base that will forgive everything. it is also true that mathematically, he may need more people than just those who need his litmus test of believing that 2020 was stolen from him. >> well, he's certainly done nothing to broaden his coalition. that's, in fact, his signature part of his running for president. i mean, look, the contrast between donald trump and then what we saw from the democrats last night, and bridget gurley, of course, former president barack obama could not be starker. one of the things is when you listen to donald trump, you just get -- whether you love him or whether you can't stand him, it's kind of depressing. it's bleak. it's grim. >> yeah. >> and it's a grim message.

and i think whenever we see barack obama, we are reminded of a time when americans, or many americans, the majority of americans, were excited to participate in politics. >> yeah. >> and i actually think that that is a really important addition to the campaign is getting, you know, people who are, let's say, committed to democracy to be excited about voting and about democracy again. and that isn't just for democrats. that's actually for, you know, nikki haley's supporters, who may be sitting at home and saying, well, you know, yes, i'm a republican, but that's got a lot more appeal than what i'm hearing from donald trump. i mean this is becoming grim and childlike and maybe it's time to turn the page. and i think that's kind of the secret audience too that, of course, barack obama is trying to appeal too. hey, let's turn down the temperature. let's be the adults in the room as he used to say. we still have a country here. we still have a democracy. let's get serious.

>> you know, the piece that is so interesting is that the biden coalition is a winning coalition. the obama coalition is a winning coalition. the clinton coalition is a winning coalition. trump's record now is of so much losing. so if you're a republican who is either a -- nikki haley voter, these permission structures exist that didn't exist four years ago. you've got liz cheney saying she's going to use every cell in her body to make sure trump is never near the oval office. you have nikki haley's huge numbers of people who didn't vote for trump in the states even after she dropped out of the race. just talk about how some of the former political skill set of former president obama can maximize that. >> when you look at the fact that none of the former republican presidents are standing up for donald trump, much less going to radio city and raising money for them, and

you have all of the former democratic presidents coming in for joe biden early, this is not the last two weeks of the campaign. the contrast couldn't be more striking. and i think that people underestimate, yes, he has -- he, being donald trump, has a core base of cult followers. but they underestimate how odious it is for some respectable politicians, particularly people that have been presidents, like the bushes, to stand with him. here's a man, if i told you, nicolle, that i just talked to a guy who was going to surrender for an arrest. when he got out of court, he cut up his garments like an old crooked preacher down south, and i'm going to sell you a piece of cloth. then a month later, he's going to sell you gold sneakers with red bottoms, and then a week after that, i'm going to sell you bibles during holy week, you'd say this guy's a con man.

now, he's the republican presidential nominee. >> you can't make it up. >> i didn't fabricate anything i said. >> we're at the you can't make it up phrase of the trump story, which is surreal and bleak. all right. let me tell you all what's happening. no one is going anywhere. we'll continue with this conversation. but we also have some breaking news to tell you about. manhattan d.a. alvin bragg has some questions for the judge about that gag order imposed on donald trump. we'll have another report on that after a quick break. stay with us as we multitask on this friday. - so this is pickleball? - pickle! ah, these guys are intense.

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so we have breaking news on the story we brought you at the top of this hour. the manhattan district attorney is asking john mershawn whether the gag order impolesed on trump does apply to the judge and the roskurt. all this with trump's repeated attacks against the judge and the judge's daughter. >> nicolle, this is one of the situations where the filing conventions in this case really complicate our jobs as news people because we heard first from the trump side but in reality this request was initially made by the d.a.'s team. i understand it was made yesterday morning. and that's important because it was before the most recent of trump's posts about juan mer shawn, the judge overseeing the

hush money case and his daughter. what they are asking the judge to do is clarify or confirm his gag order issued on tuesday of this week not only extends to his family but also extends to family members of the district attorney himself. that's important because it's largely understood that the district attorney and the judge are themselves not covered by his gag order. so in this request made, again, yesterday morning, the d.a.'s office is not asking for an expansion of the gag order or a new order but instead asking the judge to clarify or confirm his daughter and the family members of the district attorney themselves are covered. we earlier isthin house covered that then. former president trump's lawyers have responded today saying that's inappropriate, that other outlets have reported they aren't covered. and they dropped a footnote referencing being covered by the associated press and reuters. but they said in the event the judge is considering making his

daughter subject to this gag order, full briefing is necessary because of the implications for former president trump's first amendment rights. and then they take a swipe at judge mer hp shawn's daughter who is as i understand it, well into her 30s, a leader of a digital strategies firm employed both by political campaigns and nonprofits. and they say because she is engaged and providing support to the enemies of former president trump, it is totally appropriate for him to talk about her. certainly we are waiting for the judge to have some word here, but this is already hotly contested between the two sides. i just want to say one thing about the judge's daughter because, nicolle, like you i too am a parent, and i'm outraged that a defendant of any kind would go after a member of the judiciary's family member, but it's particularly pernicious whereas here the family member is a grown person in her own right.

whatever you might think about judge mershawn's daughter her father is no more responsible for her career choices and her clients than my father who's a retired school principal and administrator is for mine. and i particularly find it offensive that we're talking about a grown woman who should have agency to live her life on her own terms but instead is being subjected to attacks by the former president of the united states using the largest megaphone in the land second only to the incumbent president, perhaps. >> is this who you want, someone who's going to threaten the safety and security of the daughter, adult daughter of someone who he's -- >> well, he's a thug. i mean he's a bully and a thug, and you have to stand up to a bully. i mean i am someone who actually believes that the voters are going to have the most powerful say here in november. i think that's really important to issue a vote of no confidence, no interest in trump and trumpism. at the same time, it's this behavior that is the exact

reason why i think it's so important to hold donald trump accountable. i mean there are some people who have said this case in manhattan is maybe not as serious as some others, and that in some ways that might be true, and in other ways he's operating the same kind of impunity we've seen all along, and you cannot be above the law, cannot have a presidency above the oval office who's above the law, so he should be held accountable. >> i think when you look at the fact that the abirdty someone would be responsible for their 30-year-old daughter and that their daughter would even be mentioned -- i have two daughters in their 30s. they have nothing to do with what i do in terms of a decision. they both are activists, but i mean it's just absurd. it shows how callus and low this man will go. there's nothing off-limits to him. not only is he a thug, he is a thug that has no boundaries. i mean --

>> with a guilty conscience. he must think he's really screwed in this case if he's acting so crazy. >> the one who's not convinced it's an insignificant case is donald trump because he would not be throwing all these accusations out if he was not convinced that this could be serious. and they can say all they want it doesn't matter, they say all you need is one jury to hang it, all you need is one conviction to make him a felon. and he understands one felony puts him out of business not only the white house but impacts the business he hopes to rebuild after he finishes getting rid of all the civil cases he has. he knows if he sits in that courtroom and listens to people get on that stand in his face and testifies, then he's got a problem. >> thank you both. this wasn't the exact conversation, but we'll get back to politics on monday. thank you both. lisa rubin, i'm sorry you got up and had to come right back down.

up next for us the family of fallen capitol police officer brian sicknic refusing to let donald trump get away with what he had to say yesterday. don't go anywhere. with what he had to say yesterday. don't go anywhere. i couldn't slow down. we were starting a business from the ground up. people were showing up left and right. and so did our business needs the chase ink card made it easy. when you go for something big like this, your kids see that. and they believe they can do the same. earn unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase with the chase ink business unlimited card. make more of what's yours. this is juana's smile. ♪♪ and this is her john deere 1 series tractor. ♪♪ it gets straight to work, ♪♪ and easily connects to everything she needs, to break new ground, ♪♪ and turn a raw piece of land, ♪♪

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it's 5:00 in new york. donald trump made an appearance at the wake of a fallen nypd police officer jonathan diller yesterday, an officer who served his communicate and tragically died in the line of duty. for trump's part he used this tragedy as part of his political push toper tray himself as the one who is pro-police. this is, of course, despite the fact he regularly incited the mob that stormed the u.s. capitol that injured police officers and 140 others.

the family of those officers who died in the immediate aftermath of january 6th had some stinging and powerful words in rebuke to trump's appearance at that wake yesterday. the father of late capitol police officer brian sicknick speaking out today by telling the new york daily news this. quote, he made sure he gets his face out there. the guy is a criminal. he's the reason why son is dead because of the riot at the capitol. he's a publicity hound. trump does whatever will get him votes and helps donald trump. there's nothing good about that man. and officer sicknick's father is not alone. one january 6th officer who had to cut his job because of injuries he sustained on that day writes this. quote, this is the same person and political prisoners and hostages instead of calling what they are, convicted criminals. imagine trump calling a criminal who killed this officer in new

york city a hostage or anything but a criminal. that is what he is doing to the january 6th criminals who beat officers and breached the capitol. the death of officer in new york is tragic and reminds all of us of the sacrifices and commitment the men and women in uniform have every day as the full extent of the law is applied to bring this officer's killer to justice." that is where we start this hour. former assistant acting attorney general at the justice department and msnbc legal analyst mary mccord is here. and our friend tim miller is here. and special correspondent for vanity fair our friend molly jonfast is back. tim miller, it should not fall to the family of brian sicknick

to speak out on trump's hypocrisy. it should not fall to families -- it shouldn't fall to the judge ester solace to speak out to safety and lack of security for federal judges. it shouldn't fall to people who have already lost so much to try to wake us up from stumbling into stupid things in our politics, but that is precisely where we are and what i read. >> it's hard to add what mr. sicknick said, to what sergeant guinell said. he has a book if folks want to go out and support him. the gall of people, nicolle, and the gall of donald trump we're used to this. it's an old story. shameless, do things for any political advantage. he'll use the police officer's wake to try to attack his opponents. you know, he did not -- not only did he attend brian sicknick's

funeral, but he blocked the capitol from -- excuse me, the white house from putting the flag at half mast. if you'll recall after his death, did not contacts the family after his death, you know, even though the only reason brian sicknick was there that day, suffered two strokes that day was tased and bear sprayed that day is because donald trump brought that mob to the capitol to try to validate his lies about the election, the fact that he lost. so all of that we're used to from donald trump. the thing that is concerning and really galling to me is look ahead to 2024 and what's going to be happening this year is the echo chamber -- fox, megan kelly, people all over my social media feed are doing trump's bidding on this. trying to say joe biden didn't go to this one officer's wake and joe biden has been with so

many dead police officers tragically and sadly. and donald trump is the one that actually cares about police and joe biden doesn't. this was everywhere yesterday from donald trump's surrogates despite the fact it's patently false and absurd, despite the fact donald trump doesn't care about anybody else but himself. he used to have this big meg aphone surrounding him every time he tries one of these, you know, shamefully obvious pr ploys as brian sicknick's father described it. so that is the thing i think the political element that is worrying to me, and it's worth monitoring. >> you know, i love you for many, many reasons. one of them is i don't follow any of those people anymore. it's interesting megan kelly, i mean fox is going to cover someone trump as someone who we all know who he isn't. but i'm surprised megan kelly would fall for that. i thought she'd spoke about what actually happened on january 6th. and if you try to explain

january 6th to someone who's school age or someone from another country and you explain what happened and why it took six hours, it's really hard to come up with the words to describe what they describe as medieval combat, but that what the law enforcement officials endured was six hours of being stabbed with flagpoles, of being threatened by their own weapons, of being sprayed with chemical sprays, of having gates slam on their heads. and politico just came out, tim, with an extraordinary, you know, itemized list of the hand to hand combat and the injuries sustained by law enforcement officials. no one regardless of their affiliation should ever let donald trump ever say -- like let him say all this other stuff, but they should never, ever let him pretend to care about law enforcement. >> yeah, fs it was a shameful contrast to what megan kelly put out yesterday. and i'm not misrepresenting it. everyone can go look at it if they want to look through it on

her "x" feed, the idea trump cared more about the officers than biden is preposterous. i thought in sergeant gunel's statement, this idea if you imagine a democratic politician calling, you know, a black or brown person that killed a police officer a hostage, i mean that -- for once the people on fox could rightly be, you know, outraged about something, but that would never happen, right? but yet because these are white rioters that's storming the capitol, you know, i do think it's pretty clear there's kind of a racial subtext here that donald trump can get away with this, can call these people hostages because -- you know, because they're white. >> mary, i think jim comey sat at this table and said if they were black they would have been shot. we haven't really reckoned with that certainly not as a

political matter, but not really as a country either, it doesn't seem. >> that's right. i mean we've seen, you know, shootings by police of black and brown people for years and an escalation of that in recent years. and i don't think any of us who pay attention to these things think for a minute that if that had been a crowd, a mass of people that size that had approached the capitol in the way the rioters did even, frankly, before the worst of the violence, i don't think there's any of us who really feel honestly there wouldn't have been shots fired by law enforcement. and i don't say that in order to really criticize the law enforcement who were there that day. but, you know, i think these are sometimes unconscious bias, and i think part of the reason, frankly, that law enforcement was inadequately prepared on january 6th despite the fact that there was intelligence information available to them

that suggested -- not just suggested but made pretty clear that the plans were to encircle the capitol from trump's supporters, to encircle the capitol and try to prevent the certification of the votes, to try to ensure that donald trump would stay in office. and despite that intelligence, there was completely inadequate preparation. it was one thing to start with soft policing so as not to portray some sort of police state there at the capitol, but you needed to have that backup of that harder policing, and it's because they did not have that backup they weren't prepared. maybe they thought a bunch of white people calling themselves patriots weren't going to be a huge threat, but they were a huge threat. they were worse than a threat. they were killers. they were criminals. they destroyed lives, they destroyed property. they denigrated the entire institution. they attacked congress doing what it was constitutionally obligated to do, and many of them attempted to get ahold of

people like the vice president in order to hang him. and so it really should just shock everyone to have, you know, the former president to hear what he's been saying over the last three years escalating up, you know, now to promises of pardons for those who have been convicted for their role in the attacks of law enforcement officers as has already been described, describing them not just as political prisoners but as hostages. for anyone to condone that or amplify that or act like there's any truth to that at all is just really, really not only flies in the face of what we all saw that day, but it's just a real disservice to our law enforcement around the country who, you know, sometimes they make mistakes, and sometimes they are the victims of shootings like officer diller in new york. but none of them should have been the victim of that mob on january 6th that donald trump

summoned there. >> and i guess the difference, you know, molly, is that everyone believes that officer diller is a hero who died in the line of duty and i mean everyone on one side of the coalition, i guess, believe they both deserve our praise and gratitude. but only the trump maga base believes its only diller who believes he's different from sicknick. we wrestled a lot with a platform and whether the platform of trump's utter b.s., here's officer skinell and naphone. >> i was aware enough to recognize i was at risk of being stripped of and killed by my own firearm. i was electrocuted again and again and again with a taser. i'm sure i was screaming, but i don't think i could even hear my own voice. i thought about using my firearm on my attackers, but i knew if i

did, i would be quickly overwhelmed. and that in their minds would provide them with the justification for killing me. so i instead decided to appeal to any humanity they might have. i said as loud as i could manage, i've got kids. >> i too was being crushed by the rioters. i could feel myself losing oxygen and recall thinking to myself, this is how i'm going to die defending this. >> again, most normal, rational, decent people view all these officers the same way, as heroes who in the case of officers scannell and fanone, who put their bodies on the line. as tim said officer guinell suffered injuries that prevented him from being in this work again. officer fanone has written and spoegen about the harm it's done to him.

brian sicknick isn't here anymore. for trump to be -- i know we cover him with a sociopath's lack of awareness, but this is something different to try to convince his base he's someone that stands for law enforcement. >> the thing is if you're one of his people -- so much of his campaign is about him trying to encourage his people to do political violence. and we see this from the places that he has rallies, right, exactly to what he says to what he says about people who do crimes, right? he calls them hostages because when you do stuff for him, that's not against the law. and i think one of the things we see with him with the courts, he feels he should have special treatment because he -- this is election -- or whatever excuse it is. and so we really do see he's trying to sort of prime the ground for people to do this violence in his name.

so i think it's scary. i think it's anti-democratic, and i think that it paints a very scary picture for the funeral -- for the future. and i think we're very lucky we have had sort of limited casualties up until this point. >> yeah, i mean, mary, is that sustainable? >> well, no, it's not. i mean we're coming into an election season that's only going to get more heated. donald trump is running on his prosecutions. he's showing up in court in order to be able to make the point to his base and his supporters that he's being politically persecuted. he's using that to argue that he should be their retribution and that he needs to get back in office so that he can go after those who have wronged him. and, you know, there are people who are buying into that. so he is taking our processes, the processes for holding people accountable under the rule of

law consistent with the constitution in the united states and with the united states criminal code that was passed by congress as well as state criminal codes passed by their legislatures. he's using that process and twisting it and turning it to his benefit the same way he uses police officers who have died in the line of duty when it serves him to do so. and that is such a fraud on the american people, and it's shocking to me that as many people believe it or buy into it. and so -- but what it ultimately is doing and molly is suggesting look at where he's going, look at the things he's saying. look at the terms like bloodbath, and we can argue about whether he was talking about the auto industry or whether he was actually signaling something much bigger than that when he talked about blood bath, but i think his supporters they hear exactly what they want to hear. and it is license to do violence. we have had multiple prosecutions now of threats of people who have threats against

election officials, many more cases under investigation, and it continues to happen. election officials don't even want to be election officials anymore. elected officials, many more of those don't want to run for office. this sort of system to engage in political violence that undermines our democracy, it is not sustainable because ultimately people will not want to participate in our democratic processes, and then we don't have a democracy anymore. >> which winds us right back to where we are. i want to read one more thing and we have to sneak in a break. but this is more of what officer sicknick's father and brother said to the new york daily news yesterday. quote, the fact is trump states he's law and order, but he sent a mob that ultimately ended up killing my brother. he has such a lack of awareness of what he does. he's using that officer's death, officer diller, as a campaign

platform. they also went onto say this. in the aftermath of january 6th charles sicknick said trump waited three days after brian's body was released from the hospital to lower the flags at the white house to half staff. the first one, quote, to call us was joe biden, and he was crying on the phone, he said friday. the only thing donald trump cares about is donald trump. everyone sticks around. when we come back what trump insider steve bannon is promising to do to trump's critics and democrats and the rule of law and everybody else if the ex-president wins. that's next. plus, our special series, american autocracy, it could happen here. well, it happens to business under authoritarians. in case they don't know we'll tell them. we're already seeing business leaders who once rebuked the ex-president after that coup on january 6th now crawling back to his good graces.

how "the wall street journal" is honoring evan gerschkovich is something we're covering on this fraeld. he's wrongfully detained in russia. it has been one year. the efforts to bring him home later in the broadcast. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ite house" cos after a quick break. don't go anywhere. with his risk factors his recommended ldl-c level should be below 55. find out if you're living in the red. learn how to get a free ldl-c test. [♪♪] there's a way to cut your dishwashing time by 50%. try dawn powerwash dish spray. it removes 99% of grease and grime in half the time. it cleans so well, you can replace multiple cleaning products. try dawn powerwash. it's odd how in an instant

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it is the $64 million question in this moment of our politics. will we be able to come back from this, from the edge? politics by nature are typically divisive, competitive. but the presumptive gop presidential nominee has for years now been stoking a fear and fervor relying on propaganda

and disinformation that has brought us to a brand new anti-democratic inflection point. donald trump's party are very willingly following him down this path has morphed into a revenge obsessed anti-democratic coalition aninated by the belief the other side isn't wrong about tax policy or national security but they're evil and must be dealt with. no longer do the two parties simply disagree on how to solve the same challenges that we have but they do not agree on the same set of facts, don't agree on the same set of principles. they don't agree we should remain a democracy. no longer is there any respect for anyone on the other side of that big divide. what trump allies seem to feel and say is that trump's critics in both political parties should be punished, not just defeated at the polls but punished, dealt with. listen to steve bannon. a man rumored to be in the

running for a high level position in the white house if trump prevails in november, here's what he said about democrats on his podcast this week. >> fight fire with fire. these people are evil. they're demonic. they're destroying our country. look at what they're doing right now on this invasion of the southern border and what's happening. you talk about replacement theory. on the evening after we've won, the accountability project is going to start, and it's going to be thorough this time. it's going to be deep. it's going to be meaningful, right? and it's not going to we the peter navarro's of the world going to be in prison. it's going to be they're going to be in prison. yes, prison because that's where they deserve to be for trying to destroy this country, the greatest republic -- the greatest republic in the history of man kind. >> tim? >> well, look, some of this is bluster. you can see his stupid smirk there when he's saying that, right? some of this is false threats,

but you still need to take it seriously because it's going to be acolytes of steve bannon going to be in these positions. they say this. this is going to be 2025. they want to hollow out the justice department and put in toadies. so what exactly does that look like? i don't know but it doesn't look like a democratic republic. it doesn't look like real law and order. right, real law and order in a democracy is about everybody is equal under the law, right? it is that no one is above the law, that there's a fairness to the law, that it's not that you don't get targeted because the new -- the new czar of whatever, of d.c. corruption gets appoint today some position and they get to put the political enemies in jail. that's how they do things in fascist countries, in autocratic countries. and so these guys have demonstrated they don't actually have respect for law and order.

what they want to do is jail their opponents. they've demonstrated that by saying they want to defund the fbi, that they want to defund other federal police. it's the republicans that want to defund our federal police organizations. the other response i would like to see going back to that last segment from president biden is a commitment to the message and going out there and doing campaign stomping with capitol police, with fbi, with local police and saying we're the ones that actually stand with police, with real law and order. these guys are the ones that are targeting the fbi, targeting our federal police, that want to fire them they come in next time and were just fine and dandy when the capitol police were being attacked. i think that is a good -- it's a good contrast because it's true, and i think it's also something that will resonate. >> mary, i know it's a process for -- i mean i -- i'm actively

engaged in trying to get some of the generals who saw trump up close and personal, witness his lack of fitness to speak out. it is in their dna not to, i know it's also in yours to not be political at all, but the house is on fire. and so if you want people to have jobs like yours in future administrations, you ostensibly saw the need to speak out. do you sense that the flagrant running on, dismantling the doj and turning it into in bannon's own words an organization that would, quote, jail all of them will wake up even more voices who understand the threat he poses to the rule of law? >> i think he will. the one group we're seeing speak out more and more are judges. we have republican appointed judges and democrat appointed judges who are speaking out. they're speaking out at the time of sentencing of the january 6th

attackers but also in other public forums. judge reggie walton on the bench first in the d.c. superior court for ten years and then in the federal district court for d.c. for another 30 years and a currently sitting senior judge last night speaking out publicly on another cable channel about the threats to judges and about how undermining this is to the rule of law and the institution of democracy and that without a functioning court system that is respect asked that is not, you know, filled with threats against judges and jurors and witnesses and prosecutors, without that we have tyranny, he said. we've seen judge lambirth a reagan appointee been on the bench for 40 years never seeing anything like this. the judge talk about it was

preposterous the false narrative about what happened on january 6th was preposterous. the judge hogan raising alarms this narrative being to the detriment of our democracy. it is incumbent upon them, it is imperative for them to speak out. >> your words go a long way, so i hope they're listening. you get the last word. >> look, bannon is doing this because he thinks it excites the base, right, which is even -- >> it doesn't grow the coalition. >> it does not. trumpism has never been about growing the base, but it has been about exciting them. look, if you look to the congress right now, they have two parallel impeachments running because one of the very few ethos of trumpism is lock them up, right, punish people for crimes -- maybe not crimes but vibes. and so i do think that's where we are is this republican party that desperately wants to punish.

i think, you know, it's pretty rich to hear bannon complaining about the border when trump was the one who killed the border legislation. >> also bannon was the one who scammed the guys who wanted to make a wall and gave him money to do so and only didn't go to jail himself because trump pardoned him. >> i mean bannon is saying a lot of the quiet part out loud, but i do think if you look at the actions, right, rejecting that legislation, showed that republicans don't really care. >> they don't want to settle the border. thank you for scrambling the jets with us and for us when we switch gears at the top. really grateful. when we come back our series american autocracy it could happen here, and what business could be in for if there is a second trump term. n for if ther second trump term. . you have to make it. and if you want a successful business, all it takes is an idea, and now becomes the future where you grew a dream into a reality. the all new godaddy airo. put your business online in minutes with the power of ai. with the freestyle libre 3 system...

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what happened yesterday is a disgrace, and as an american i'm embarrassed. you know, i didn't vote for trump in '16. i voted for him in this past election, november. today i'm sorry i did that. >> so that man's name is nelson pelz. he was mad, he seemed sad, and he was in his own words sorry that he did that. and that was voting for donald trump. because after january 6th sorry was what he thought to say.

here's why he matters. he's a republican megadonor, he's got a lot of money. he wasn't the only billionaire who felt that way, sorry, sad and mad and voiced his outrage what trump did on january 6th. such immediate outrage in the aftermath. the sentiments were common in what i would imagine from someone in that wealthy peer group. the passage of time has shown even people like that that don't have financial concerns, that they're discussed and what sounds like real anguish wasn't going to last. "the washington post" points out today earlier this month according to people with knowledge of that man, nelson pelz, he had breakfast with donald trump in palm beach alongside a bunch of other billionaires, and a man you just heard describe his personal embarrassment and remorse for voting for trump in 2020 after

january 6th happens told "the financial times" he is probably going to vote for trump again in 2024. he's not alone. quote, after january 6th billionaire developer trump lost me as a supporter. he showed me in that particular hour he was no commander, end quote. that guy has now pledged $20 million to a protrump campaign group and more than that he's funding his legal defense fund according to reuters. his firm did not respond to a request for comment on either of that. while for many of these really, really wealthy people, the decision might come down to what they see as best for their massive bank accounts, right, and their holdings. maybe they're worried about what president joe biden's tax policies mean for their businesses. but what they clearly fail to realize is this. when someone like donald trump

models a second term term after the guys he really, really loves and talks about love people like viktor orban, and vladimir putin and despots as he's made abundantly clear he will do, what then. and i think we already know just how lethal autocracy is to the capitalism. joining this is the professor of associology, kim shepoli is here. also joining us professor of philosophy at yale university, author of six different books including how fascism works, the politics of us and them, jason stanley. and with us at the table the founder and ceo of the leadership now project, a national membership organization of business and thought leaders who are committed to fixing

american democracy. we'll start with the bright somewhat. how do you bring them in and make them protect democracy? >> we shouldn't see business as a monolith. there are many business leaders who are concerned with what's happening. of course there's some visible ones you just talked about who are willing to tradeoff democracy for whatever their interests at the moment is. but what we really see is that there are quite a few business leaders who see the risks for their family and for their business of an autocratic direction for this country. so it is not hard for us to find business leaders or concerns. i think the important thing is what can they do that can have an impact. and where we see a lot of that is critical states like wisconsin, ohio, where business leaders are seeing day to day the impact on democracy. >> are any of them fail to see the threat or is it just a

calculation of whether or not they want to be out there? >> i think it's not just a calculation if they want to be out there though that is part of it. i think the threat is clear. i think many business leaders see that there is a threat -- i think it's a calculation of how big a threat is it. is it a threat that will be not as significant as a bit of chaos on the hill, right? so some underestimate the threat and many are not sure if the population, if the polling is showing that trump is popular, are they really going to have an impact by coming out. so i think part of what we've done is create those pathways of here is the most important places you can engage. >> what are those? >> there's a very basic thing going on right now that started in the lead up to the election, which is undermining faith in the elections. that is consistent, it is completely un-american. and the vast majority of business leaders believe we should have faith in elections, polling would suggest. we've done efforts to support poll workers, election officials, do amicus briefs when

election administrators are being threatened like in a state like wisconsin and really publicly support the importance of faith in elections and participation. in arizona 80% of election workers have quit, which is unbelievable. threatened in their homes, they're having to hide. so i think locally the business leaders we work would there see that and are ready to come out. others have been willing to more directly endorse biden or come out against trump. you saw mark cuban come out et cetera. i think we'll see more of that. but at a minimum we see an opportunity for business leaders to restore faith in elections. >> is it your sense business leaders are at least peeking or trying to understand what happened in hungary when orban ascended to what he did to industry or looking at russia? what is your sense of the current state of thinking among most business leaders? >> well, i don't think many business leaders have realized this is not just business as usual with a slightly more

chaotic candidate in the mix. and when you look at what happened in hungary, viktor orban came in and he like donald trump is very transactional guy. so the question isn't whether you support him today, the question is what does he need from you, and what can he get? so when viktor orban came to power he started nationalizing sectors of the economy. and he did that even though he's on the right. but he did things like for the companies that were providing natural gas deliveries to private homes, the government negotiated a price for the import of natural gas from russia, and then they set a price for what it was that the distributors could charge the customers. and they set that up so that every single cubic foot affgas that was pumped lost money for the companies and drove them out of business, drove them out of hungary. one of the things you have to

realize when these guys come into power if they decide they either want to take over your business or get back at you for something you've done, they control a lot of levers. they control regulatory levers. they may control the courts, and the courts can then rule against you, if you decide you want to sue them for something. once you get an auto crat in power controlling all these levers, then it really isn't just a matter, you know, as i think american business leaders are used to in buying excess, of cozying up and then you get something in exchange. no, these leaders are not playing by those kind of rules. and they're determined to stay in power forever, and they may need to destroy your business to do it. and so we've seen that kind of thing in hungary, and i am concern that kind of thing may come here. >> the trumpian twist would be orban appears to have been a methodical autocrat. it took some planning to do. trump would be an arbitrary and

capricious autocrat. he's attacking a sitting judge's daughter because of the clients her digital consulting firm has. if someone retweeted a john stewart clip and their father or grandfather were in a tight-knit business, wouldn't shield him from his rage. he's talked about taking this company off the air. what is the sort of historical parallel that appropriately warns business leaders about the risks they face today? >> well, i think we have contemporary parallels. as kim pointed out where bond is a contemporary, someone who trump has praised to high heavens. he chooses the oligarchs and oligarchs that cross him imprisoned is another good example. the current moment has historic precedence. business leaders in germany in

the early 1930s supported hitler and the nazis thinking they could do certain work for them like get rid of the labor unions or weaken their power. and they found out to their concern that there was much more facing them. now, project 2025 is a blueprint for the second trump term. and the first priority for the department of commerce is to replace employees by all decision making done by political appointees. now, just imagine that. they're supposed to provide us with independent information about the economy. instead they'll be providing us with the kind of information used to justify whatever will increase trump and his crony's wealth. >> jason, where do you think -- is it muscle memory that business people think that trump because he's running under the banners of republican but he really, trust me, is not at all conservative -- i mean what

makes a business sector or a group of business leaders think that trump by ending and permanently altering our democratic norms and doing what you -- and these are all things on websites. i mean one of the big advances of trumpism is it's all out in the open, all on white papers. anyone can go and read them. what lulls business leaders into either not knowing that, not caring about that or not believing that? >> well, this is also familiar from history. you get an authoritarian leader or dictator winning only when people who would never themselves consider themselves fascists or authoritarians think that this authoritarian autocrat fascist leader will get their goals done for them. they prefer that to democracy. we can see that with people who oppose abortion. we can see that with people who think trump will cut their taxes. in each case they want to trade democracy for something that

they think will favor them. and history shows there's not a good outcome for that. >> kim, what would your warning be if a business leader called you? what would you -- what case would you build that democracy is much better for business than autocracy? >> well, i think what democracy brings you is also the rule of law. and the rule of law brings you a certain kind of stability and predictability about what the state can and can't do to individuals and to companies. i think all these historical examples show that once an autocrat grabs the reins of power suddenly all that predictability and certainty is lost. essentially what it comes down to the rules of the day is whatever that autocrat wants that day. i might add to what jason said about project 2025 it's just emerged actually the heritage foundation worked very closely with viktor orban with designing

that plan. viktor orban's people was in there. this looks exactly what he did when he came to power in 2020 and just blitzed the whole government with all his people. so that's something we've seen before, and i think jason is absolutely right to say when you get political appointees all the way down through the governmental structure responding to the whim of the leader, you've lost the certainty and predictability that comes with the rule of law itself, and this actually connects to what you were doing in the last segment on the threats to judges because that's also part of it. you know, one of the things that autocrats try to do is try to drive the judges off the bench. and so this kind of thing where you clear out all the people willing to uphold the rule of law, replace them with the people willing to rule by when, not a business. >> this conversation will be continued. i'm like a dog with a bone on this. i can't for the life of me figure out why there aren't more folks alarmed and why some of

these folks who saw the events on january 6th clearly have to go on tv and say they regretted voting for trump or crawling back to him. so consider yourselves all on live tv put on notice, we will need you often. thank you so much for having this conversation with us. when we come back, it has been exactly one year since wall street journal reporter evan gerschkovich was arrested and imprisoned in russia. how "the wall street journal" is honoring one of their own today and what is being done to gain his freedom in our next story. bn his freedom in our next story.

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today marks one year since vladimir putin and the kremlin abducted evan gershkovich. they detained him while reporting on charges of espionage which have been vehemently denied by both "the wall street journal" as well as the u.s. government. today's front page was a powerful one. it was left blank for a story gershkovich should have written. his story should be here. he said in part, journalism is not a crime, and evan went to russia to do his job as a reporter, risking his safety to shine the light of truth on russia's brutal aggression against ukraine. as i have told evan's parents, i will never give up hope either.

joining us is shelby holiday is back. you brought us i think it was the 100 days, right? i think there was this milestone. the front page of the journal today is beautiful, haunting, tragic. >> we started the day in the newsroom about how much we wished we didn't have to be here, how much we wished this day had never had to come. it's been a long year. there have been a lot of events in russia. there are many times i think, wow, i really would love to read evan's reporting, his insight, whether it was navalny's death, the terrorist attack in moscow. he is such a gifted reporter, an american reporter raised with a russian heritage. he has this amazing ability to connect russia and the west and help us understand what is going on on the ground in this country in such a pivotal moment.

we wish that byline. that front page needs to be his reporting. he's managing the best he can but it is heartbreaking to see your colleague for one year in a tiny cell all by himself. he doesn't even have a trial date yet. >> what does that mean? what does sort of -- is the state department the journal's source of information? tell me what you know and how you know it. >> there's a team working around the clock, in the administration and also we have a team of lawyers. people are literally constantly working on ways to get him out or potential deals that could be struck. this morning our publisher said we came close and we're hopeful. this is a goodwin doe for the administration to push and get him out before any sort of trial date is set because while russia does have a justice system, once you are in the system, you are all but convicted. i think the conviction rate is

99%. because he's being held on charges of espionage which are false and not true, everything is being done in secret. no public evidence. maybe no public trial even so it would be great if we could get him back sooner than later. we just don't know. >> how are his parents holding up? >> his parents are so wise and so strong and so gracious. they fled the soviet union, like i said, so i think they understand on a level that many of us never could or never will how these things happen and how the game is played and what they need to do to get through this. so one thing that has struck me is their optimism. i interviewed them shortly after evan was detained and higgs mom said, we choose to be american and we choose to be optimistic. >> i remember that. >> throughout the year they went to see him in a hearing in his glass cage. i'll never forget this. the i'm on the phone with her writing a print story, she said, we smiled. we did what the russian

authorities never expected us to do which is smile and laugh and have this beautiful loving moment with our son. and i think that meant a lot for her to be able to take that home with her. even as they were listening to president putin talk about their son like a bargaining chip in some sort of game, they chose to look at that optimistically. there is a path to get him out. we are hopeful this means president putin's regime is talking to the american government and we're going to just be optimistic about it. they've been incredibly strong. >> how has it changed your newsroom? >> well, if you walk in our newsroom, evan's face is everywhere. we used to have our big front page newspaper layout in the hub. for a year it's just been evan and his face. we have a beautiful intonation of all of the news he's missed, all of the stories he's missed in the past year. i think it's made us a lot more aware of the risks journalists take and the danger that we're

often put on especially on the ground in autocratic dangerous countries. today is the day, yes, all about evan but so much more about evan. it's about free press and the ability to report facts and shine light on the things that are shaping our generation. it's a somber reminder of just how important journalism is. >> thank you so much. i love seeing you but i hope there's not another anniversary. >> thank you for shining a light on this. happy holiday. hopefully he's back. >> god willing. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. ♪(voya)♪ there are some things that work better together. like your workplace benefits and retirement savings.

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