waiting for to see. it was something our colleague kelly o'donnell talked about, paying tribute to the journalists, the number of journalists that have been killed, the journalists that are still in detention illegally in russia, austin tice in syria, evan gershkowvitz being held in russia, the number of journalists killed in gaza and those held around the world. it was an important message all of us are waiting for and it is a reminder of how important, how sacred this night is to the freedom of press and to a healthy democracy. can't thank you enough, thank you for making time for us. we know that denies looking for any opportunities. if you have one. if you have any opportunities for dino, please get in touch with him. i will see you again tomorrow night at 7:00 p.m. until then, i'm ayman mohyeldin in new york. have a great night, everyone. e what a week. a tabloid testimony in donald trump's hush money interference

trial, and stunning arguments before the supreme court as trump continues his quest for total immunity regardless of his actions. legal analyst anthony coley and renaldo mariotti join me live to discuss the significance. chaos on campus as pro- palestinian protest spread to colleges across the country. we will take a closer look at what is fueling them and what happens when politicians like house speaker mike johnson enter the divide. ended his nerd prominent. colin just and president biden are set to deliver punchlines at tonight's white house correspondents dinner. obama's former speech writer explained what it is like to write those jokes and which ones will work best. this is the saturday show.

>> i'm all dolled up in my brand-new tuxedo for tonight's white house correspondents dinner, where donald trump will no doubt be roasted for his legal troubles. but as much as we joke about his courtroom based campaign, trump's threat to democracy remains very real. and this week we saw evidence of that in none other than the supreme court. trump's immunity hearing before the nine justices is raising alarm bells in legal and political circles. not only does it show just how far the four times indicted on 88 counts former president will go to avoid accountability for attending to overturn a free and fair election, the hearing also exposed how some justices appeared willing to consider partial immunity so that future presidents could make tough, daresay controversial or even illegal decisions without fear of prosecution. case in point, trump's's lawyer arguing again that the president should be able to get

away with murder if it is a quote official act. >> if the president decides that his rival is a corrupt person, and he orders the military order orders someone to assassinate him, is that within his official acts for which he can get immunity? >> it would depend on the hypothetical, but we could see that could will be an official act. >> the liberal justices were more concerned about allowing presidents to commit crimes within impurity. a concern echoed by justice department attorney michael dreeben. >> his novel theory would immunize former presidents for criminal liability for bribery, treason, murder, and here, conspiring to use fraud to overturn the results of an election and perpetuate himself in power. such presidential immunity has no foundation in the

constitution. the framers knew too well the dangers of a king who could do no wrong. >> and about that king thing. in the new york times, quote, trump has asked to the supreme court if he is, in effect, a king. and at least four members of the court, among them the so- called originalists have said in essence that they will have to think about it. the conservative justices signaled they are likely to send trump's immunity claim back to the lower court, which could delay his federal election interference trial for months. meeting at trial is unlikely to start before the november election. meanwhile, trump's fake elector scheme is finally being prosecuted in arizona with an indictment charging mark meadows, rudy giuliani, and 16 other trump allies, and naming trump himself as an unindicted co-conspirator.

and then there is trump's hush money trial in manhattan, where witnesses revealed his earliest forms of election interference. trump has denied the allegations and pleaded not guilty to 34 felony counts of falsifying business records. former national enquirer publisher david pecker was the first to take the stand, testifying that he suppressed stories about trump's scandals and spread lies about his rivals in the 2016 race. also known as big news. pecker said he served as the quote eyes and ears for the campaign at trump's on request. then trump's former assistant testified under subpoena. she told the jury she remembered seeing stormy daniels in the trump tower lobby and adding her contact info to the trump organization's database. when court reconvenes tuesday morning, there will be more testimony from the banker who helped michael cohen pay off stormy daniels.

now, here is some food for thought. as we hurtle into week two of trump's hush money interference trial. if the supreme court rules as expected in the immunity case, the case brought by manhattan district attorney alvin bragg could be trump's first and last criminal trial before the election. joining me now, former federal prosecutor renato mariotti. he is a legal affairs columnist for political magazine. also with me msnbc justice and legal analyst anthony coley. he served as the director of the justice department's office of public affairs and senior adviser to attorney general merrick garland. thank you very much for coming to the saturday show. it renato, prosecutors in the new york criminal trial, have they shown that this case is about election interference and not just trump covering up an affair? >> there is still question that

that is the theme they are sounding. they made that in their opening statement, they are trying to make that case throughout this trial. and in fact, that is what they need to show in order to make this a felony charge, as opposed to a misdemeanor. so i think we are going to see more evidence along those lines, and more argument along those lines for weeks to come. the bottom line is that they are trying to show a concerted effort to influence the election, and in fact, what we heard from the first witness, david pecker , is that the former white house actually part of that effort while she was in office. >> david pecker, the national enquirer publisher was on the stand for four days. did the defense succeed in discrediting any of the story and cross examination? >> not really. this was the prosecution's game, it was their win. they needed to dispel this notion that this case was all

about a minor bookkeeping issue, as donald trump says, or on the other hand, that it was about hush money payments. which, in and of itself, are not illegal. this is about a broad criminal conspiracy to keep critical information from the american people, and it started in august of 2015, just weeks after donald trump announced that he would run for president. and it started in this meeting at trump tower where david pecker was summoned, he had michael cohen in the room, and they, as you noted in your lead-in, he decided, he promised trump there that he would be his eyes and ears. so throughout this campaign, for any types of allegations of these types of tort affairs. i think with the duracell this week as a clear win for the prosecution, david pecker took them inside the room and made all these things very real. >> renato, someone else was inside the room. i need you to talk about how michael cohen's banker, gary farrow, fits into the prosecution's narrative.

he takes the stand again on tuesday. >> yeah, that's right. first of all, one thing that does matter, although this case is entirely about false statements and business records, that is at the core of this, and really what this witness is going to show, he is going to backup and corroborate the testimony of michael cohen. we all know michael cullen has got credibility issues, given his prior convictions. he is going to corroborate that, and he is going to show what those payments were for. in other words, those payments were not payments for legal services, but they were in fact hush money payments. so that leads to the question of why there was a cover up in the books of the trump organization. >> one more question for you, renato. because judge juan merchan has scheduled another hearing for thursday on trump's gag order. why didn't he rule after the first 10 times trump allegedly violated the gag order? what is taking so long?

>> well, you know, there is an image of the sword of damocles where you have the sword hanging over your head. i really believe that what is going on here is that the judge wants this hanging over the head, not so much of trump, who does whatever he wants, but over trump's lawyer. trump's lawyers know that at the end of the day the judge is the one who decides what questions they can ask. they really don't want to be on the judge's bedside. he is basically using this as a tool to try to get them to rein in as much as possible before he makes a decision. >> o, that is real good. that's real good. i love it when i hear stuff i have not heard before. anthony, i want to turn to trump's immunity claimant.

during oral arguments, i want to read this. i'm not focused on the here and now of this case. i am very concerned about the future. why shouldn't i be concerned that he isn't concerned about the facts of the case before them? >> right, that is really ahead scratcher. because what you see in most court cases, and certainly the supreme court, justices and judges are required to look at the facts of the case. and what he is saying here have a lot of people scratching their heads. i don't know that anybody can really understand quite how this is going to play out. but jonathan i, i will tell you the thing that disturbed me more is the fact that this could get pushed back down to the trial court level. and that would achieve what donald trump really wants. he is not trying to win this case on the merit at all. he is trying to throw sand in the gears of the case to slow it down, to keep the case from going and being fully adjudicated before the election. so i think at the end of the

day it's going to come down to the american people doing what we all did in 2020, and that is going to the polls. >> we have less than a minute left, but i can't let you go in this segment without asking you this question. the justices talked about official acts, and lawful orders of the president. is an order by the president considered lawful by nature? who determines that? >> that's a great question. and that really is going to require fact-finding by the judge. that is really what we were talking about, you were just discussing a moment ago. but essentially what would have to happen is you would actually have to have a hearing in front of the judge, where the judge makes preliminary findings regarding whether or not this is an official act and whether or not prosecution can go forward. that is what we create so much delay here, and really, that is why this supreme court ruling is fraught with potential threat to our democracy. >> we are going to have to have a whole segment just on this lawful axe, lawful orders from

the president, because i seem to remember reading somewhere that if the president gives an order it is considered a lawful, like you have to follow it otherwise you are disobeying the commander-in-chief. this is the military complex. anyway, we don't have time to talk about it now. anthony coley, renaldo mariotti, thank you very much for coming to the saturday show. coming up, new polling shows from supporters continuing to stand by their man in spite of his criminal charges. they represent exactly what the founding fathers feared most, according to washington post columnist robert kagan, who joins me next on the saturday show. also coming up, president of reproductive freedom for all, and why the next few months will be pivotal in the debate over women's reproductive freedom. roductive freedom. this dove winds you down. this dove leaves you glowing. and this dove keeps you going. so whatever care you care about, there's a dove for every body. shingles. some describe it as an intense burning sensation.

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voters will continue to back him in the 2024 election, even if he is convicted of a crime. the question is, why? my next guest argues that the support is a form of rebellion we have seen throughout our nation's history. a resistance to american liberalism. in his latest piece for the washington post which is adapted from his forthcoming book, robert kagan writes it is what the founders worried about, and abraham lincoln warned about. a decline in what they called public virtue. they feared it would be hard to sustain popular support for the revolutionary liberal principles of the declaration of independence, and they worried that the virtuous love of liberty and equality would in time give way to narrow, selfish interests. 20 me now is robert kagan, columnist for the washington post, and a senior fellow at the brookings institution. he is the author of the new book rebellion, how anti-liberalism is tearing america apart again. which comes out on tuesday.

as always, thank you very much for speaking with me and for coming on the show. your argument emphasizes the decline in public virtue as a key factor behind the support for trump. explain what you mean by that. >> well, when we fought the revolution and the founders set up the system and established the constitution, they were acutely conscious of the need to present and protect individual rights. which was really what the revolution was about. so they established a system that was unlike any other that had ever been established in history. one founded on the liberal principles that all human beings are equal and enjoy the same natural rights, and that it is the job of government to protect those rights. but they knew, it was obviously true that many americans didn't necessarily agree with those principles. the slaveholders, for instance, or after the civil war, much of the south

which was implementing jim crow laws. we have always have a large number of americans who are fundamentally disagreeing with what the founders are creating, which is a system that levels the hierarchy, it levels of racial hierarchies, it levels religious hierarchies, and people have been resisting that. and i think what we are seeing today, at least from a substantial and probably the core of trump's reporters are people who would like to see our system fundamentally change. some want to call it a christian america, some wanted to be a white christian america, which is not what the founders created. >> i want to pick up on something you just talked about. you also write the for two centuries many white americans felt under siege by the founders liberalism. talk more about how does race tie into all of this? >> well, race has been a critical issue for americans ever since its founding. obviously race in regard to

slavery, the south, leaders of the south like john calhoun and others did not believe that black people had equal rights, so they justified the system of slavery on that basis. and it is pretty clear that a lot of americans historically have wanted to regard our nation as a white, protestant nation. many believe that that is what the founders wanted, even though it is definitely not what the founders wanted. and i think it is possible to record and possibly every generation a significant number of whites who were suffering from what sociologists in the middle of the 20th century called status anxiety, the belief that the culture that they know and the culture that they support and that is about them is being changed by the influx of immigrants, by granting rights to blacks and other minorities, and in some cases by granting rights to women. and that is not the america that they thought they were in.

and a lot of this make america great again is really a way of saying let's go back to a time when all these different groups didn't have all these rights, and we are not pressing for equality, not just of rights, but in the way they are treated in the large american family, the increasingly diverse american family. >> let me get you on one more thing, bob. as he been talking, you point out the christian nationalism has been a powerful and often dominant force throughout our country's history. how does trump's embrace and amplification of christian nationalism compared to what we've seen in the past? >> well, we have never seen a presidential nominee, i would say, certainly in the last 70 or 80 years run on such a frankly white supremacist platform. he began in 2012 when he first ran for the president by singling out barack obama and

the birther conspiracy, which is essentially saying that the first american black president wasn't really un-american. i think in doing so he signaled to unhappy whites out there that he was there guy, and he has been there guy ever since. and right now there is a mutually dependent relationship between trump and this core of white christian supporters. >> robert kagan, thank you very much for coming to the saturday show, and full need to go to washington post.com, look under the opinion section, go to robert kagan, read this masterful essay. actually, bob, every essay you write is masterful, and i really appreciate you coming on the show. >> thanks, it's a real pleasure. still to come, the next several months will be pivotal in the right for women's reproductive rights. the president every productive freedom for all joins us to talk about a key case before the supreme court.

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the next few months will be consequential in the fight for reproductive rights. after two militants, arizona's republican-led house passed a bill to repeal the state's 1864 law that bans nearly all abortions. the state senate is expected to pass the measure as early as wednesday, may 1st. that is the same day forrester coney and six week ban will go into effect. currently florida is one of the three states where an abortion rights amendment will appear on the november ballot. and other states are following suit. even activists in deep red arkansas are pushing for a ballot initiative to protect abortion access. and then there is the looming decision from the u.s. supreme court that could have far-reaching effects . on wednesday the court heard arguments on whether a federal law requiring hospitals to provide emergency medical care overrides idaho's near-total

abortion ban . what stood out, a clear gender divide among the justices. conservative justice amy coney barrett joined the three female liberal justices to push back on arguments made by the lawyer representing idaho. >> when idaho law changed to make the issue whether she is going to diet or not or whether she is going to have a serious medical condition, by your standards? >> it's very case-by-case. >> i'm kind of shocked, actually. as i thought your own expert had said below that these kinds of experts cases were covered. neither saying they are not? >> does dr. said that if they were exercising their medical judgment they could in good faith determine the lifesaving care is necessary. and that is my point, this is subjective. >> but some doctors couldn't? some doctors might read it a contrary conclusion.

>> joining me now, the president of reproductive freedom for all. she was outside the supreme court on wednesday. right now she is getting ready to attend the white house correspondents dinner. thank you so much for coming on the show. so, were you at all shocked by the gender divide that was playing out on the court? >> you know, i wasn't shocked about the liberal justices. they really gave the idaho state attorney a lot of grief, as he deserved. i was a little bit surprised and pleased to hear justice coney barrett join in. i mean, look. idaho's case is quite shocking. republicans are really fond of talking about exceptions, right? and how they believe and exceptions to save lives. so why are they challenging the ultimate exception, which is this federal emergency law that would protect women? it is quite unconscionable, and

really, deeply disturbing. >> you know, you wrote on x that you have been working in this movement for a long time, and are more angry than ever. what frustrated you about, well, what frustrated you most about wednesday's arguments? >> you know, jonathan, there were actual discussions about when an emergency should occur for a pregnant woman. you know, is it loss of an organ? is it loss of her uterus? how close does she have to be to death for us to consider this an emergency? is that the kind of country we want to live in? where we are actually debating the value of body parts and lives? you know, remember during obamacare the debates about death panels? we have a real life death panel right now, and it is the u.s. supreme court. and i don't think that's what anybody in this country wants. >> many, arguing on behalf of the federal government said

that one hospital system in idaho is having to transfer a pregnant woman in a medical crisis out of the state about once every other week. talk about the far-reaching consequences this case could have for idaho and other states with similar bands. >> you know, idaho was already facing a maternal health and care crisis, so many doctors and physicians have left idaho that there is a healthcare desert emerging in the state. you are seeing this across the country, in the 21 states with bans and restrictions. it is a really hostile climate for providers and a really impossible place for patients. so it is a chilling effect on the health care system, and it is well beyond abortion care and reproductive care. it affects the whole healthcare ecosystem, so it is something we need to be tracking and watching for, and it is a really compelling argument for why we need a federal right to abortion in all 50 states re- established, codifying and going beyond to get the care everybody needs in this country. >> you know, it seems as if

people watching our thinking wait a minute, but i thought the supreme court already heard an abortion related case? and it did. we are still awaiting the supreme court's decision on whether a drug used for medical abortion will remain widely available. so if the supreme court comes down against it and comes out in favor of what idaho is doing, what will that do to reproductive freedom in this country? will those two decisions, if they come down like that, b dobbs on steroids? >> you said it. the case we have been talking about like a backdoor abortion ban, it would have impact on the most popular and effective and used way of abortion care, which is medication abortion. it is the majority of abortions

in this country, and it is how so many patients are getting access to care. you combine that with the lack of emergency care, and look, this court said it was done hearing abortion cases. and yet here we have two more. and these decisions are likely to come out around the jobs anniversary, so women in this country are fed up, they are angry. we need a federal solution, but we also need states to step up. so we are seeing folks like gavin newsom in california working with katie hobbs in arizona to make sure patients are getting care and creating solutions. but ultimately it's going to come down to this november election. >> coming to us from the white house correspondents dinner red carpet, where we have basically been a cavalcade of nbc news personnel. lester holds, lana garrett, kristen welker all behind you during this interview. thank you so much as always for coming to the saturday show. >> thank you. next, hamas releases video

of two more israeli hostages today. what we know about them tonight. plus, pro-palestinian protests expand american colleges and universities across the country. in some jewish students are worried for their safety. how some lawmakers are making a tense situation much worse. coming up.

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>> we have some breaking news out of the middle east. hamas has released video of two hostages, american israeli keith siegel, and nbc has not been able to verify when or where the video was taken, but the men did mention the passover holiday and called for a new hostage release deal. this is the first video of siegel since he and his wife were abducted in the october 7th attack. she was released in november during the last hostage release. student protests against the israel hamas war are escalating all across the country. in largely peaceful protests, students have vowed to keep mounting pressure on their college administrations to divest from companies linked to israel. hundreds of demonstrators, including students and professors have already been arrested. this week pro-palestinian encampments have popped up at

nearly 40 american colleges and universities. some jewish students are expressing concerns about their safety after reporting threats and incidents of anti-semitism. the protesters insist that does not reflect the tone of most of the demonstration. at the university of southern california, the environment has become so tense that the administration canceled its main commitments ceremony citing the need for additional security. the protests have also become a political flashpoint, as demonstrated this week i house speaker mike johnson's visit to columbia university in new york, a focal point of the protest. >> if this is not contained quickly and if these threats and intimidation are not stopped, there is an appropriate time for the national guard. we have to bring order to these campuses. we cannot allow this to happen around the country. we are better than this. and i will ask the president to do that, and i will tell him that very same thing.

>> joining me now, democratic strategist and director of public policy program at hunter college. and republican strategist and msnbc political analyst. susan, basil, thank you very much for coming back to the show. you teach full-time at hunter college and have been teaching part-time at columbia since 2006. what if you been hearing from your students? >> well, i will tell you, my students basically they care about their safety and security, and certainly that of their peers at the school. they are paying a lot of money to walk onto a campus to be enlightened in some way, shape, or form. and they don't want to walk through a gauntlet of threats and intimidation. and what i would say, though, and i want to be very clear about this. that by and large, a lot of the students that i interact with walking by this process myself, you know, they are largely peaceful. and there were certainly some anti-semitic comments made some individuals, but the majority

of the students that i interacted with, and i take that very seriously. a lot of the students that i interact with are just trying to figure out how they got here in this moment, trying to make sense of this moment, also trying to be able to be in an environment where they can feel safe. and let me zoom out a quick second. if you think about a lot of the young people today, what have they experience? they've gone through a financial collapse, occupy wall street, a black president and backlash to that in the form of donald trump and aggressive white supremacy and anti- semitism. they have gone through mass shootings with no gun control and site. black lives matter rallies, a pandemic, and are coming out of college believing that they will never be able to buy their first home. when you put all those things together, these are students that are just having an incredible amount of uncertain t about their future. they don't trust us or any of the institutions that we support. and they want some guidance.

not that they want direction, but they want to be able to trust. they are active, they are opinionated, they are cynically engaged, but they want to feel like they can buy into something. and that is something that i think a lot of faculty members in the classrooms every day are trying to help them sort out. >> susan, let me get your viewpoint on something that charles blow wrote in the new york times on wednesday, and i am quoting here. seems to be a sense of the biden campaign that it can simply wait the protesters out, that passions will eventually fade, and the democratic voters will fall in line when we get closer to election day. and the choice between biden and donald trump becomes more stark. that is a reckless gamble. susan, do you agree, do you think the demonstrations continue after school lets out for the summer? graduations are starting, and by this time next month school is going to be out all across

the country. >> yeah, and i think that is a gamble that most of these college presidents were willing to take, the fact that school would be out and they would see the students dispersed for whatever they're going to be doing, because they can't be on campus in these and cannons. and frankly, that was the first thing that the presidents of the schools did wrong, is allowing this to happen. it is one thing to have peaceful protests, and they absolutely should. but the president of the vanderbilt university wrote a really great piece talking about the balance of public safety for all students and free speech. it can be reached, but not if administrators react in fear. and that is what they are doing. as far as the political situation, i do think like the ministry to universities around the country that the biden campaign is hoping that the students will go home. but you know, the students also have a big responsibility that they have to take on.

if they hear river to the sea or pro-hamas or anti-semitic remarks, they should call their fellow students out on it. it is unbelievable how little these students really know about what they are doing. they seem to want to be getting involved with something versus supporting it. for example, if they want a cease-fire, why are they calling out hamas for not agreeing to the terms of a six week cease-fire along with the release of 33 hostages in exchange, again, for hundreds of palestinians and that six week cease-fire? they are not, they don't even know about it, jonathan. this gets me so angry. and i can imagine how it is really bothering a lot of folks who, whether they are dealing with it politically or just like my sister is, with kids in college and hearing all her friends say you know, i don't know what to do, my kids don't feel safe. it also means that mike johnson

should not go up there and stir the pot. >> and basil, and we have less than a minute, but i will let you have the last word on this. because i am going to jump in here, and yes. you are absolutely right, susan. speaker johnson jumping into this, i thought, was really not responsible. but susan, you are talking about administrators reacting in fear of this, the students. and i think administrators are now reacting in fear of politicians, particularly republican politicians like the ones who showed up on the steps of columbia this week. >> yeah, listen. thinking about my 20 something- year-old self who is marching against apartheid in south africa, the vast majority of students that i encountered through all of this, they just want peace, they want an end to what they are seeing day today, and listen, what they don't want is these outside agitators coming in and saying we need to

bring the national guard and get the police back on campus. when you do that you open the door for so much potential chaos that endangers the lives of the students. and i think what doesn't get out is the fact that every single faculty member that i encountered throughout these universities want one thing for the students. to make sure that they are safe, to make sure that they are in an environment where they are being academically enriched, and to be able to go out and exercise their right to protest. i did that. these students should be able to do that without being feared , without having to fear a police officer coming and throwing them to the ground like that professor. >> basil, i'm sorry to cut you off, but we are already way over. so i want to thank you, time really flies and we are talking about something vitally important. thank you very much for coming

to the saturday show. and i would like to take a moment to honor the life and career of new jersey congressman donald pena junior, who died this week at age 65 after suffering a heart attack last month. congressman payne's colleagues in congress remember him as a dyed in the wool public servant, known for the devotion and love he showed for his community. he was first elected to congress in 2012, succeeding his father, donald pena senior, who is the first black representative from new jersey. tributes for congressman pena junior have been pouring in. president biden wrote in a statement i have trusted his partnership throughout my presidency and always been grateful for his insight and support. as a newark native, i knew both congressman payne and his father. i also had the pleasure of talking with the congressman a month ago when he offered me some words of encouragement before my interview with president biden. congressman donald payne junior was an inspiration to all public servants, and he will be missed in the halls of

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made the point of attending at least once during their term, except for former president donald trump. the only time he showed his face at the event was back in 2011, when the then president barack obama delivered jokes that many believed sparked trump's decision to run for president. joining me now, i thought we were going to show it. joining me now, speechwriter for former president obama, and author of x obama, democracy in one book or less. thank you very much for being here. so, you didn't write the jokes in 2011, but you are the lead writer for four of president obama's correspondents dinner speeches. earlier we asked you which was your favorite joke, and we have a clip of one of them. let's watch. >> cheney says he thinks i am the worst president of his lifetime. which is interesting, because i think cheney is the worst president of my lifetime.

>> now, considering what we've been through, i bet cheney feels differently now. can you tell us what goes into crafting those jokes? >> well, jokes like that, they are a team effort. the way always put it when i was working on the dinner was if it went badly would be my fault, but if it went well it's a group. what i like particularly about that don't joke, the cheney joke, is the story behind it. because cheney had made that comment, we went in with a punchline, it was pretty tame. and the note i got back said come on, this has to be sharper. it's cheney. so there's a line, right? as a president you have to be careful. president obama was always good about saying let's try something a little edgier, let's push the line a bit. and that's how you ended up with some stuff that was really

fun and also kind of scored a point or maybe made a point. >> on that point, one of the biggest challenges of writing jokes for president. there is the line, but are there other challenges? >> the biggest challenge, and i would say we are very lucky working with president obama. he could deliver a joke, he was really good at it. the comedian afterward had a very tough act to follow. but generally speaking, if you're writing jokes for politicians the number one thing you have to remember is they are politicians, not comedians. and i think president biden is strong at this, as well, the best jokes are the ones that play off their existing persona. not something, they are not trying out open mic night or something like that. politicians who, if they know that, that tends to help. >> so what kind of materials should we expect from biden this year? >> well, i'm always looking at these dinners. in a way they are a good barometer of what politicians are really nervous about, because that is what they won't joke about. if they are confident about something they will often do a joke about it.

so i think it's not a surprise, everyone is thinking well, what is joe biden going to say about age? i imagine the way he handles that with humor is actually going to tell us a lot about how he and his team are thinking about that going into the next couple months through the election. >> that's interesting, and what about leaning into misperceptions of you? >> yeah, i think that is one of the things that is always most fun to do, to be able to say hey, you in the audience, sometimes people and the press. you wrote this about me. are you guys said this about me, in that cheney thing right now. cheney says on the worst president of his lifetime. and it's a way of saying hey, there's a lot of nonsense out there. and calling it out. but also doing it in a way that is funny enough that everyone in the room says all right, you got me, that's pretty good. >> well, i'm looking forward to being there. david, thank you very much for coming in and turning up for me. i have a twin here. we will be back in a moment with more of the saturday show right here on msnbc. msnbc.

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be sure to tune in tomorrow to the sunday show, when new york congressman jamaal bowman joins us live to discuss his visit with student protesters at columbia university. i will also talk with north carolina congresswoman kathy manning about her meeting with jewish students at the university. that is tomorrow at six: p.m. eastern right here on msnbc.