be immune from criminal prosecution. the highest court in the land even entertaining this argument is half the story. will be 30 years since -- ended in south africa. we will look back on that legacy and the work that lies ahead for that country and democracy. another hour of velshi begins right now. so we can warning to you. a few days can compare to what we witnessed last thursday when corporate proceedings remembered the inflection point that donald trump has brought us while facing criminal prosecutions. let's set the scene. donald trump, the twice impeached former president who

was also the current presidential nominee facing trial for one of his crimes. he is accused of falsifying business records to cover up a payment made to an adult film actress he is alleged to have an affair. to prevent her from going public with the damaging story. prosecutors allege that his actions were in service of voters in the final days of the campaign. the former president was named as an unindicted co-conspirator in two cases related to a multistate effort to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election. 200 miles away another one of his lawyers was arguing before the justices that the former president should be immune from criminal prosecution for anything he did while in

office. trumps attorney was forced to concede that in the team's view, immunity is so great that the president could get away with staging a military coup or ordering the assassination of a political opponent. >> if the president decides that his rival is a corrupt person, and he orders the military or someone to assassinate him, is that within his official acts that he can get immunity? >> we could see that could well be. >> take a moment to process how wild that argument is in general. we are talking about what donald trump actually did in the last election. why would he be immune from that? trump is the leading presidential candidate for an election that is six months away and he has vowed to exact retribution for those who are

his enemies. he said it. a lawyer was able to make that argument on his behalf speaks to how much donald trump has corrupted our politics. some justices are supporting his claims of immunity. the justices spent a lot of time during the hearing talking about hypothetical situations and voicing concerns about how this ruling might affect the future of the presidency. some argue they did not spend enough time on the specific case in front of them. the petitioner who brought it. the one man in this country's history who actively thwarted the peaceful transfer of power. it is unclear to us how or when the justices will resolve this. it is likely that this could

add months of delay to the interference case. if that happens, this might not proceed to trial. this case may never proceed to trial at all. joining me is doug jones of alabama. on thursday, it was the room where oral arguments were held. senator, good to see you. thank you for being with us this morning. the tension between some of those justices and the arguments they are making was obvious. some members of the court were split on this. what was it like in that room? how did you sense what was going down? >> it is always a somber occasion when you are sitting in the supreme court listening to oral arguments. it is a very ornate courtroom. i for one was not that

surprised that the nature of the arguments. even the hypotheticals. justices asked questions for a lot of different reasons. there was a lot of tension for sure is there always is with this particular court right now. i also saw, in my view, that the court as a whole is not likely to buy into absolute unfettered immunity. especially with the way that the trump lawyer argued for it. i don't think that is going to happen. i do believe we will see this case come back for some reason. and have lower court proceedings. >> senator, you were the united states attorney in alabama. you know how these things work. judges and supreme court justices put these hypotheticals out here to establish the parameters. what is the argument you are making? but to the point that there is a specific argument here as it

relates to section 3 of the 14th amendment of the constitution, did you sense that there was enough inquiry and debate and discussion around the specifics of what donald trump is accused of having done? >> you know, that is a really good question. the fact of the matter is that the allegations in the indictment stand for themselves. there does not have to be a questioning about those allegations. even though justice amy: barrett became very close to that. after rattling off several questions that would be personal and not official asks. i think we have more than that. clearly in any supreme court decision, you will be looking how this affects down the road. criminal cases in particular, you are looking at punishment and the charge. what is going to be that fine line?

i have never believe that this case was going to be resolved on a bright line test if there is absolute immunity or not. clearly, there will not be a ruling that there is absolute immunity for official acts. how will you do find that? the president does have some leeway. this is a legitimate question for the court. even the more liberal justices see that as well. >> the issue of leeway and using different words did,. how does the president do things that are not criminal for which she will not be prosecuted. the justice i you shepherded through her confirmation process made strong arguments about the possibility that if he is granted immunity for criminal things that they actually do, then the office

could become the seat of criminal activity in this country. she was distinguishing between presidents being prosecuted and being prosecuted for what is determined as criminal activity. >> yeah. i think that is the key. i believe justice jackson set the parameter for this. even if you look at the other hypotheticals, i have a hard time seeing the hypotheticals from the conservative justices will broaden that immunity to the concern that we have a former president on trial in any number of jurisdictions. that is going to be the key. having that balance from criminal activity that is clearly criminal activity, versus the ability to carry forward duties as president of the united states for any number of reasons. we are dealing with the president of the united states and official activities.

this is not a normal every day joe or jane. this is the president who has certain powers and duties under the constitution. it is a lot more nuanced than black and white. >> you mentioned that you do not think it will end up with the supreme court suggesting that there is absolute immunity. if the supreme court decision does cause additional delays to one or more of his criminal cases, it raises the stakes of the november election even higher. if donald trump gets to not go to trial, then the trial, in the minds of some americans, becomes about the prosecution of donald trump. >> sure. i think that will be the case for some americans regardless of it goes to trial and he is convicted or acquitted. the one thing i believe that people have to start looking at

is it is not the conviction of the trial. if this case goes back, there will very well likely be some evidence in the hearings in the court below, in the district court where you see several days of potential testimony and evidentiary hearings. at the end of the day, it should be the fact that determine if someone is fit to be president of the united states. if they are convicted with a jury beyond a reasonable doubt, is one thing. remember, the committee changed the dynamic a lot. they brought out so many facts. the facts that we are seeing play out in the courtroom right now are changing that dynamic. regardless of the outcome. it is the facts. if people are seeing a donald trump that they have not seen before in the new york war room, they will see that, should there be evidentiary hearings in the court below.

>> thank you for spending time with us this morning. a former senator for the state of alabama. we have stories of courage big and small. 30 years since nelson mandela issued in equality. one reporter gave a voice to those who went unheard of. if you're age 50 to 85 and looking to buy life insurance on a fixed budget, remember the three p's. what are the three p's? the three p's of life insurance on a fixed budget are price, price, and price. a price you can afford, a price that can't increase, and a price that fits your budget. i'm 54. what's my price?

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when others divide. we unite. with real solutions to help our kids. like community schools. neighborhood hubs that provide everything from mental health services to food pantries. academic tutoring to prom dresses. healthcare to after care. community schools can wrap so much around public schools. ...and through meaningful partnerships with families, they become centers of their communities. real solutions for kids and communities at aft.org i am prepared to die. the famous words spoken by nelson mandela on the first day of a trial that charged him in high treason in his involvement

in political trials. that replaced apartheid on trial. the 30th anniversary since the end of apartheid when south africa's nonwhite population gained the right to vote and equality under the law. and by extension, all south africans gained equality. language created in south africa that was declared state policy in 1948 that led to a system of racial segregation that denied all people color rights and subjected them to racism and explication. in 1964, mandela, apartheid is biggest opposer. he experienced the loss of his mother and the death of his older son that was killed in a

car accident. he went blind from his sentence of breaking white rocks every day. he fell sick with tuberculosis and the burdens of grief took their toll on his age. the nation ailed alongside him. teetering on the brink of race war. when he was finally released from prison in 1990 who spent 70 years fighting apartheid, i understood what the world was witnessing was not the release of one important man, the dawn of a new era for my parents homeland and for democracy itself. for south africans of color, it felt like they were taking the first few steps of freedom alongside mandela. newly there is mr. nelson mandela. a free man taking his first steps into a new south africa.

>> one of my most formative moments was watching him step out of prison for the first time on february the 11th, 1990 after being behind bars for 27 years. in my new book i describe that moment. the campaign for his release had become a cause celeb around the world. it had become the symbol that embodied the fate of the nation as a whole. south africa would only be free when mandela was free. and now he was free. the first shock was what you look like. the pictures i had seen of him were from before he had been detained. the mandela that i knew was a big man, a boxer. the man on tv was elderly, thin as a rail and oddly enough, a smile on his face. the smile mystified me. how could he be a smiling and

forgiving person after torture and confinement and separation from the people you love. the first time in my life i had witnessed that kind of grace. today, 30 years after the fall of apartheid his dream of equality is a work in progress. the legacy of apartheid haunts the democracy as they struggle to find their footing again. in 2022, south africa was ranked the most unequal country in the world by the world bank with grace playing the biggest role in driving inequality. white staff africans who are 7% of the population own most of the land and control most of the economic activity. the legacy of racism is something that americans are familiar with. it took 100 years from the time of the 13th amendment to

overturn racial segregation and we are still trying to figure out equality today. south africa is today, only one generation removed from the apartheid era and not fully removed at that. in 1963, martin luther king junior delivered his i have a dream speech during the march on washington where he highlighted the unfulfilled promise of democracy. now is the time to lift our nation from racial injustice and to the solid rock of brotherhood. now is the time to make justice a reality to all of god's children. 1963 is not the end but a beginning. one month from now, south africans will head to the polls in a historic election that could bring about a political change with the ruling party, the african national congress, mandela's party in risk of losing its majority since he was elected 30 years ago. the shift is in part due to the born free generation. the first children born in

south africa who are now old enough to vote. having only known crippling poverty, this generation is poised to hold his successors to account. he saved south africa from a bloody civil war. it is this generation that is positioned to steer the course of their country's future. this is democracy in action. south african early freedom fighters understood that. the struggle for true equality was far from over. this icon reminded his countrymen of the words of the american abolitionist. the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. l vigilance. that helps treat and, all in one. to those with migraine, i see you. for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura and the preventive treatment

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we have breaking news right now this morning. world central kitchen will continue delivery to gaza beginning tomorrow. the group posits operations after an israeli airstrike killed seven of its workers. at the time of the attack, israel admitted to grave mistakes. according to the internal state department memo, senior u.s. officials have advised the secretary of state that they do not find credible or reliable assurance is that it is using supply weapons in accordance with humanitarian law. the report adds that there are eight examples of military actions that the officials said raise serious questions about potential violations of international humanitarian law. the u.s. secretary of state,

blinken will be there on monday. thomas releases video footage of hostages. chief siegel whose wife was also held hostage, in the video he mentioned the passover holiday. in the video, he said that he has been held for 202 days. this indicates that the videos are filmed recently. the second time that hamas has released a proof of life videos. they showed video of the 23- year-old poland. a delegation is in israel right now trying to stall negotiations of a potential hostage deal. a hostage deal would do for the invasion. hamas has received israel's response to the cease-fire proposal. the contents of that proposal are unclear to us at this time.

palestinian authority president who governs the west bank said that he expects the assault to happen within days. he warned that the united states is the only country that can stop israel from attacking. president biden does have the tools to make a difference in this war. the isaiah has become the albatross around biden's neck. it is not just his war. it will be part of his legacy. a blot on his campaign. it could get worse if gaza cascades into a full-blown famine or violent anarchy or if a wider war breaks out involving iran or lebanon. nicholas kristof joins me now. the author of the forthcoming book, chasing hope, a reporter's life. thank you for being with us.

this is a matter that you are stating as fact that some people take issue with. this is not america's war. do not blame biden for what netanyahu is doing. netanyahu seems to be very invested in this war. why does he make the argument so strongly that biden has to own part of this? >> clearly the war is also owned by netanyahu and hamas which they broke the cease- fire october 7th. look, this war is sustained by american weapons sent by the biden administration in enormous amounts. it is sustained by diplomatic protection at the united nations. for example, attack on international rescue committee compounds in gaza. this is an american aid organization funded with american money. it was bombed by an american

made f-16 owned by israel. by an american bomb. when you have an american fighter plane dropping an american-made bomb on an american aid organization, that comes back to president biden. >> you know biden well, you have interviewed him in the past. many people can agree this is a man of great empathy. some of the anger in america and abroad stems from a lack of urgency and empathy on biden's part for palestinian suffering. when he speaks of the victims, i can feel his war and discuss at the inhumanity of hamas. i do not feel these same emotion about the death of palestinian children in gaza. >> i have to say, this is a hard column to write.

in many ways, i think he has smart aides around him. his foreign policy has generally been impressive in east asia. and yet, i think he has made america complicit in the deaths of 13,000 children. that is because of this empathy gap. frankly, it goes way back. during the 1982 israeli invasion of lebanon where american senators were outraged by this civilian toll. even president reagan took the prime minister to and that death toll on civilians. the one senator calling on the prime minister to attack even more aggressively was joe biden. i think that his policy is really driven not so much by the administration but by joe biden himself. i think he was five for what happened on october 7. he feels

deep empathy for the israelis civilians that were attacked and killed and mutilated on october 7th and that is all fair. i don't see that same passion for people suffering on the gaza side of the line. if your heart does not bleed for children on both sides of that line and you don't care about human rights on both sides, you don't care about human rights. >> we are in a fraud moment in america with protest and people who take great exception with things that move from being pro- palestinian to being pro-hamas and being anti-somatic. you write about the fact that the response from israel was hard and the miscalculation that israel would make was hard to understand. for israel, they were so

traumatized by the harshness of what was to come which was quite predictable. the defense minister said that israel is fighting human animals. there will be no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. there were 18,000 references to gaza being erased, destroyed, and flattened in the first six weeks after october 7th. the anger was palpable. that is understandable and valid. your point is that america should have been able to foresee that this is how it would unfold. >> we should've been able to foresee that because we should've remembered that on our own part after 9/11. we engaged in enormous mistakes. president biden did encourage restraint on the part of israel. >> he made that reference. >> exactly. he did. he did not back that up with

his leverage. starvation for example of gaza, he has reacted to the throttling of aid into gaza and the starvation there by building this floating pier, back in december, the u.s. had a chance to ordered a security council measure that would provide an alternative inspection mechanism that would've been able to get more trucks and. the u.s. blocked the creation of that alternative u.n. inspection mechanism. finally what president biden did to make a tough phone call to threaten to condition aid. then aid increased. you wish that president biden had done this back in october or november rather than waiting for kids to starve to death. >> good to see you as always.

thank you from the last few days. it is worth reading because there is a lot of nuance in there. it was a sad column for you to write. it is important that we continue to bear witness. the author of the forthcoming book, chasing hope, a reporter's life. i will talk to my close friend. if your mother the velshi band book club. he is going to tell us about the good news that he received. it worked guys! ♪yeahhhh♪ downy rinse and refresh. okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition for strength and energy. yay - woo hoo! ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals, nutrients for immune health. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. (♪♪) nice to meet ya. my name is david. i've been a pharmacist for 44 years. when i have customers come in

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whose books have been banned in the united states. when i spoke to pancholy it was not about his banned book, per se, we spoke about another type of censorship he experienced in recent weeks. he was to speak at an anti- bullying assembly in pennsylvania. the school board took issue with him and voted unanimously to cancel the event. they did so without consulting the school or letting pancholy know that there was an issue. one of the reasons was because of pancholy's lifestyle. it was recorded on zoom and here is what was said. >> i know he is a homosexual activist and has written books. we know what he is going to be talking about? >> if you research this individual, he labels himself as an activist, he is proud of his lifestyle, and i don't think i should be imposed upon

our students at any age. >> it is not discriminating against his lifestyle, that is his choice. it is him speaking about it and they did say that that is not the topic but that is what his books are about and he will talk about his pathway because he talks about anti-bullying and empathy and inclusion. part of that is his journey and as an activist, that is where it gets concerning. >> not letting the self- proclaimed activist talk. this is the important part, they did not see his speech and they do not know what he was going to talk about. velshi would not think that any better if they canceled it after seeing his speech. they voted to cancel malik pancholy speech. he is not a random guy that wanted to talk to middle schoolers about bullying. he is qualified to do so. he is the chair and cofounder

of an organization whose mission is to end bullying. i'm happy to report that the school board came to its senses after a lot of backlash from students and parents and faculty. the cumberland valley school district reversed its decision and the anti-bullying event is back on. saying that i know what this would've meant to me. last night you made sure that every single student knows that they belong. i am joined by malik pancholy, actor, activist and author of two books. the feature from last year. this is good news. the way that it went down was pretty good too. you were very gracious to them. the man who was recorded on that call talking about your

lifestyle actually was the one who reintroduced the motion for the speech. >> i want to recognize this. it's not often we get to celebrate these kind of victories. what happened here was a unique thing and this incident got national attention. if that is because i have a platform or because parents were engaged on the ground and got word out to the press. because of those words that everyone heard on tape, it really jarred the public that people were speaking that way. and force people to take pause and really listen. yes, this person who introduced the motion to cancel the book is the person who introduced the motion to real and stated. >> there is a movement. he called insensitive. the vote was 5-4. five people out of nine came over and saw the benefit of moving ahead with this conversation.

>> you also took a sensitive approach which would be typical of you for anybody who knows you. you did not spike the ball. you went in and said thank you for making people feel seen. >> and about this in a lot of different ways. i'm invested in getting books into the hands of kids and getting books where kids can see themselves into their own hands. i recognize that this is an individual community. this is something they need to grapple with and that they are figuring out. i don't know if you are able to watch the recording of the school board meeting. it was emotional. a lot of people said not to watch it. i want every student out there who spoke to know that i watched every minute of it and their words were so passionate and moving and kids had the courage to stand up and talk

about what it is like to be different at school. what it is like to be bullied. they had the courage to talk about suicidal ideations in a room full of hundreds of people. that is really important. i mean everything i said. i think my approach to it was not a calculated approach. i am so moved by this incredible community and what they have shown they can do and what this means for other communities around the country. not every book ban or person band gets this kind of attention. >> we talk about this. a book is banned for different reasons. in my view the content or the words in the book, it might be the ideas and it might be the writer of the book. it was remarkable to listen to that meeting where nobody knew or ask you what you were going to talk about although you had a book. they were just assuming because

you are an activist which is a good -- bad word. you bring those two things together. i am not sure what they thought was going to happen. you are going to indoctrinate a bunch of kids? >> we know that does not happen. i said that on the banned book club. i write books that feature three characters. books will not change someone's orientation. i do think that part of the fear, if i can make some guesses here, it is not about banning books. it is about banning people. we are trying to erase certain identities and not allow them to be seen in books. what those kids spoke about in that meeting was how important it was for them to be seen. that takes a lot of courage again. i'm so proud of those students.

>> you encouraged them. the whole thing encourages people to have those small acts of courage. they realize that there was some payoff. they got you back as a speaker. someone with suicidal ideations, when people see themselves in a book, it can change the trajectory of their life. thank you for being a multiple appearing guest on the velshi banned book club. >> thank you for helping these things to move forward. >> a good day for all of us. giving a voice to ohio, colorado, idaho, for the rest of the country, he provided hope. ded hope. than j ust seed alone. giving you a stronger lawn. smell that freedom, eh? get scotts turf builder rapid grass today, it's guaranteed. feed your lawn. feed it.

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schedule now for free mobile service at safelite.com. ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ are you looking for your next favorite book? i have some suggestions. we have great literature lined up for the velshi band book

club. catch 22 by joseph keller and tingle makes three by justin richardson. maximum ride by james patterson and the poet x. next weekend, jeannette walls will join on her best-selling memoir, the glass capsule published in 2005. the nomadic and dysfunctional upbringing. he remained on the best sellers list for over 80 years. it is every bit as a contemporary classic. before our next meeting which will be with jeanette wall, send your comments and questions. a book club is nothing without you, it's members. we will be right back. back. in no time. earn unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase with the chase ink business unlimited card

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you have heard of food deserts where fresh and healthy food is hard to come by. the same thing happens in local news. a geographic area with limited access to news. they are found in rural and less populated parts of the united states. these deserts are growing. it can leave americans in a

vacuum oblivious to the full range of things going on in the world around them. you can imagine how much of an issue this was in 2020 with social unrest and a deadly pandemic ravaging the nation. how can people get reliable and life-saving information that is specific to their needs where they live and on the flipside, how are their stories and voices being heard? a reporter in montana recognized this issue in the mountain west. he hopped on a bicycle to report on the country's political divide across the continental divide. he planned to bike 900 miles across the mountain west. he took a physically arduous journey to listen to the on heard stories of everyday americans to learn about their communities. he went into these interviews with four open-ended questions. what most concerns you about your community or the country

in the coming year? what you want people to understand about your community or your life? where'd you get your news and information? and what has been your experience with voting this year and in years past? these questions are not inherently political. national politics took center stage because of the election i was upon us. as i ride away, i wonder how the conversations that i ended up today at the same place, political polarization and the divide facing america in 2020. nate also found that some issues that fell local to some folks were the same issues coming up again and again throughout his journey. issues like growing wealth inequality, housing shortages and the rising cost of living. in 2020 he was one human being talking to other human beings. his small act of courage gave a voice to those who were muffled

in a difficult time. he is the host of the outside in on new hampshire public radio and a contributor to npr. thank you for being with us. i want to start with your take away, the impact you have had on the world and on voters, what was the biggest take away from this project? >> my biggest take away was two fold. on one hand, i love doing this kind of exercise in slow journalism. we are in this 24/7 new cycle, being on a bicycle, being able to go slowly from town to town, it just allowed for a kind of calmness in the conversation where you are not trying to get

a bite or anything else, you are trying to get conversations meeting people on the road randomly. that is beautiful. the second take away that i had, time and time again, if i was talking to progressive folks or conservative people, there was concern about political unrest and concern for violence around the 2020 election. when january 6 happened, i was not surprised based on my conversations i had with people on the road. >> i need to explore is slow journalism. i've been saying for a while that there is a slow food movement, there should be a slow news movement. where you take the time to learn about a topic. it does not cause you to change your social media picture before you are able to say to somebody, i do not know this topic very well, let me study it. >> absolutely. it is really tough to do. we were lucky to have a grant to be able to do it. we could not do a project as wild and crazy as that without a hefty grant that allowed us

to take five weeks off for me to ride my bicycle across the country. i really do think it is incredibly important even if you are not a journalist. if you are just a person just to slow down sometimes. if you are going on a trip or going on a vacation, talk to people have conversations. we don't have as many conversations person-to-person across the political divide as much anymore as we used to. >> how much would it help if people felt hurt if they felt heard by you? not corrected, not told that their views are wrong, not told that they have strange sources of information, but if they get to talk to someone who has no agenda but to listen to them. >> i think it helps to appoint.

i don't know if it changes political views by any means. we are not having a dialogue. as a journalist, i am having that conversation with somebody. i'm trying to understand their perspective. if i was in a different position, it was your local city council meeting or something like that, those dialogues are super important. as a journalist, it is good for me to have those conversations. i know that people felt heard and they were happy to have talk to me. that said, i do not know how much it changed anything. it helped me better understand the place and space. >> i don't know the answer to that either. it is better than the alternative which is you not hearing them. thank you for what you do. nate is the host of outside in on new hampshire public radio. i feel strongly that small acts of courage are the answer to

the world in which problems seem overwhelming or too big to fix. so much so that small acts of courage, a legacy and a fight for democracy is the title of my new book it comes out on may 7th. i will discuss it and i would love to meet you in those cities. it kicks off with my lunch in philadelphia on may 7th. baltimore on may 9th. more demands after that. i will keep you posted of all of it on social media. i am on x, instagram, threads, and even mastodon. hope to see you there. that does it for me. inside begins now. now. donald trump watch key witnesses testify in one courtroom while lawyers made his bunkers case for presidential immunity