sure we are not at risk. >> in about 15-20 seconds, how concerned are you right now about this becoming a much greater problem? >> right now i am not too concerned about it becoming a big problem rapidly. the virus has not mutated to transmit officially from person to person. we must watch that closely. just a few mutations can make it infectious to people and it could get out of hand very quickly. >> a very sobering conversation, and i think you nonetheless. that is going to do it for me. we will be back next saturday and sunday at 1:00 p.m. eastern. at 1:00 p.m. eastern.

welcome to primetime weekends. i am nicolle wallace. let's get to the top stories. alvin bragg steam cut to the heart of the case in that questioning of david . -- david pecker. they said, quote, is it true, sir, was that your purpose in walking out the karen mcdonnell starry -- mcdougall story? the answer from david pecker, yes. he added, the actual purpose was to acquire lifetime rights so the story was not published by any news organization. david pecker said it was standard to suppress stories to help a friend, but -- this was catch and kill in order to

influence a presidential election. now, with court adjourned for the weekend, it also -- we will have key testimony still ahead. we start the hour with our most favorite reporters and friends, two who were inside the courtroom today, investigative reporter suzanne craig and former attorney and deputy assistant attorney carrie whitman. lucky for us, you can check out that you can never leave and you are still here as a friend. let's start with you and your wonderful mug. >> it was a continuation about agreement that karen mcdougal had. president donald trump's lawyers try to muddy the water. i think to -- karen mcdougal got something. she got a cover of the magazine. she wrote some articles and it really was payment for service.

on redirect, when the government's lawyers got back up, you read the testimony. they put a stop to it. david pecker was calm and cool and just said, no, she may have gotten something, but this was a payment to silence her, to keep her off the market. >> wouldn't her main service be the story? if you are in the business of a huge story, between the two of you, it is the perfect group. wouldn't that be the main way, if there was not this private agreement, wouldn't the main reason that somebody would want this is not -- someone who used to work for playboy is going to write a story, but she has to say that -- >> there was a great moment. there was another point where president donald trump's lawyers got up and david pecker was asked about karen mcdougal and they said she was a

celebrity and there was a long pause because she is not. they kept going along, that -- it was really funny because she is not someone would put on the coven or of the national enquirer. she was famous in some circles, but not david pecker. >> when they told me about this in august of 2016, there was no mention of we hired this fitness columnist. i mean, i am instructed to get those columns going after the election, after the wall street journal -- as it is in the contract, that we need to produce these columns and that is when i get the ghost writer in and that is when we actually have to start running the column. there is a suggestion that we have paid -- the covers are --

>> they are great advertisements. >> exactly. there is a contractual suggestion that that is what it was but that is what made redirect so effective. david pecker, who is oddly credible, he is a scoundrel, but they put the fear of god of him. he was just an affable scandal, giving it all up. this would have been, for the reasons they say, a valuable article for the national enquirer to run in its own right, but they would not do it because they had one reason and one reason only. that was the most effective, the bridge they built to stormy daniels, who is coming. >> i saw anderson cooper a couple of times. she talks about her love for him and his love for her. what kind of story with that have been? >> that is a difference between a stormy daniels situation and the karen mcdougal matter.

stormy daniels was a one night tries to. karen mcdougal was there for months. he said her story is credible. i thought, we will break this and this will be the biggest group of the election. we had to sit down with a playboy girl, talking about her love for president donald trump while he was a married man. >> she believed it was his love for her. here is what she described. i want to ask you how this would figure into the article and their logistics. >> when you say you had arranged to go someplace, how would it be arranged? >> i would pay for the flight. i would book it myself. i would book the hotel room if i was not staying with them. there were a couple times where i did not. and then he would reimburse me.

if a flight was, i do not know, $500, he would give me $500 and say take care of the flight. >> why would he have you book all the travel and the hotel rooms? >> there is no paper trail. >> did you realize that at the time? >> yes, i did. >> because he was concerned about there being a paper trail? >> all i was told was i cannot say what -- i would assume that is the case, yes. >> to your point, this was a long-term relationship. lots of, you know, meat. it seems like the bread and butter of the kind of stories the national enquirer broke. >> that is manna from heaven. that is the cover-up we would have sold millions of, potentially. we would have a -- an agenda

for weeks. if it was not for this deal that we are hearing about, in 2015, to purchase these negative stories off the market. i went there to break big stories like this in the lead up to the election, and not have them fall off the market. >> can you quantify how much it would have been worth for the national enquirer do have that cover story? it seems like the kind of story every new detail might have been another story? >> we would have been running this for weeks and weeks and weeks. not just in the magazine, but on our digital upper-80s. it is hard to give a figure. it would have been the biggest story for the inquirer in several years. >> could you call it an national enquirer goal? >> this is why the numbers --

because it is a fraud trial, it is misleading. the politics, this was an invaluable contribution to president donald trump's efforts. >> they were going through huge financial problem. i wonder what he said to you. you have this incredible story about karen mcdougal's affair. how did he explain it would not be in the paper? >> that was something -- he said we have got this -- i have interviewed this woman in los angeles and i find the story credible. karen mcdougal is a playboy. i'm ready for him to say, okay, this is what night -- i need your help with. he said, they made a decision to pay her under $150,000 and the story will never see the light of day. i am sitting there going, and what world would we not run that story? what is actually going on?

what am i a part of year? it was a moment where i was like, this will end my career. >> i want to show you keith davidson describing these interactions with david pecker . >> she believed they were not fulfilling the terms of the deal and she was upset and we scheduled a meeting with ami, who we met with -- they met with david pecker, who is an incredible man. there were even further promises that were made to her at that meeting, so the situation became worse, not better, and that was really a great source of frustration for everyone involved on our side. >> what we know now, what david pecker allegedly admitted to when prosecutors were talking

with michael cohen to protect the president, there was a phrase he used at that luncheon. what was that? >> he said thank you. thank you very much. i wanted to thank you. i respect you, karen. i wanted you to look in the eye and have a face-to-face meeting. i want to thank you very much for your loyalty. >> thank you for your loyalty. they could not come up with another way? >> look, they have a problem with the defense. there is no way you can argue there was no sort of catch and kill agreement. it is just too documented. you have to argue it had nothing to do with the election and that is where it is like, go to with that. >> colin -- michael cohen went to jail because it had everything to do with the election. >> use your common sense. the timeline will be put for the jury in summation, but they could not say there was no agreement. that she was not being hired

for her work and it makes no sense why her story would not be run. they have to be able to say, this had nothing to do with the election. this is normal catch and kill stuff. that is where you will have a lot of contrary evidence in the timeline. it does not work. the narrative is, right now, the narrative is on the state side. you are not hearing a coherent story that explains all of the facts. that is a real theme from the state. take what they are saying. how do they account for certain facts that do not fit with that sort of innocent explanation narrative? >> the other thing is -- >> all of it. >> there are agreements we did with thousands of sellers. we actually had a limit of $10,000 and then we would have to go to david office. that is a lot of money, $150,000, for a story we were not running. >> much more about what

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what is her questions? >> she is there executive assistant. she -- her office is directly next to his and she is involved in a lot that went on. >> joining us, the host of

politicsnation on msnbc. i want to come back to you, harry. she was on the stand, rhona graff. >> she was not the stand for very long. 34 years or something. it is everything. they obviously concluded she was not a safe witness for them. they used are only two authenticate, to use and get into evidence at the contacts were and who the calendar was at the end. she gave -- when she walked from the stand, trump stood up and extended his hand and wanted to sort of hug her and in front of the jury, boldly improper. the guards actually came to stop him, but she was an ultimately friendly witness and the da decided it was not safe. she was not --

>> i thought she had some interesting testimony. rhona graff was the gatekeeper. she was for years. i hear president donald trump saying get me my messages. she worked for him for so long and what president donald trump's lawyers tried to establish with her is that she did come to trump tower. she had to testify about contact names that she put into his rolodex. stormy -- it did not say stormy daniels and it did not say -- it just said "stormy" with a phone number. stormy daniels came to trump tower in 2007. she writes about it in her book, full disclosure. there was a bit of information , that she had been there. they tried to position this visit as she was coming in to try to get on the celebrity apprentice. she was angling to get on the show. i happen to know from self

reporting that nbc would not let that happen, but that is how they were trying to report her as a potential contestant for celebrity apprentice, which came after the apprentice and they had interesting characters on it. i do not think she would have fit in. it was kind of a different thing. >> and i comment on that? what is interesting to me, trump has the tryst. in a different kind of defense, with a different kind of defendant, most independents , he is a bit sleazy and he cuts corners, but he is not a criminal. they cannot make that defense because he is right there and they will not let him. they are having to carry that weight and therefore have a whole narrative of, oh, she was just there for the apprentice, but you add that up with

mcdougal , with everything they have to deny because trump is their client, they have to substantiate what he has done before, and the weight of it is too much to bear. the jury will say, not all of these things can be lies and given the way they have defended it, that makes the whole case very hard to defend. >> i think the jury has seen -- again, they are the only people who will decide if he committed crimes, but what they have seen is a very, very, very, very good friend of his who likes him very much. rhona is so loyal that he tried to get up to hug her. they have not heard from someone who think that they cannot trust them. that seems like a good place to start. >> the defense is waiting for this and his name is to them one -- they will see that as the centerpiece of the trial. to andrew's point, it is true they have not had a narrative.

i think the cross, for example, of david pecker was technically sound but they did not get anywhere. this guy is not a liar. he is a very interesting figure, a scoundrel, but not a liar. they are just trying to sort of poke and the hole they can find, but they are not doing it thematically. i think the only thing they seem to be ready for is michael cohen is the devil of all devils with all the cooperation. it will be a hard, hard road for them to hoe. >> they call him a liar. they say he did not -- he went to jail because what? >> because of what? i mean, if he went to jail for doing something, then how can you say it was not done? he had to do it with president donald trump because last time

i checked, michael cohen was not running for president. i think, if i am the da, and i do not have any insides. i never talked about the case. you make michael cohen as sleazy as you can because in closing, i am going to say he was his lawyer. this is who he paid. in fact, he told you these were for legal services. services that we still do not know what they were. what was he paying this money for? this sleazy guy that they told you -- that president donald trump, who could have picked anyone up fifth avenue, but he chose this guy. is guy. anti-inflammatory medicine directly at the source. voltaren, the joy of movement. they need their lawn back fast and you need scotts turf builder rapid grass. it grows grass 2 times faster than just seed alone.

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the highest court in the land consider the scope of presidential immunity. how far you go and what constitutes an official act. we heard what they contended in

front of a lower court, but -- to hypothetically, for now, assassinate a political opponent would be within the realm of immunity in president donald trump's legal team's of you. today, supreme court justice elena kagan took that example further. >> let's say this president who ordered the military to stage a coup, he is no longer president. he was not impeached. he could not be impeached, but he ordered the military to stage a coup and you are saying that is an official act? >> i think it would depend. i think it would depend on the circumstances, whether it was an official act. again, he would have to be -- >> what do you mean it to rent on the circumstances? he was the commander in chief. he talks to his generals and he told the generals, i do not feel like leaving office. i want to stage a coup. is that immune? >> if it is an official act,

there needs to be impeachment and conviction beforehand because the framers -- >> if it is an official outcome is that an official act? is that an official act? >> on the way you described that kind of hypothetical, it could well be. it is a fact specific context. >> that answer sounds to me as though it is an official act, but that sure sounds bad, doesn't it? >> it certainly sounds very bad. >> not for nothing, but if he could have, he would have. on january 6th, make no mistake. that is exactly why he likes him so much. that is an outrageously, flagrantly authoritarian move. president donald trump has already shown us he wanted to rule, right? he put the right people in place. he has shown us his eagerness to strain the boundaries, not just from a legal, but a moral

standard. he and his legal team are gaslighting the trump base by suggesting a president does indeed wield such power outside the scope of any legal accountability. so, listen to the way supreme court justice ketanji brown jackson addressed president donald trump's attorney on his argument that there would be a chilling effect on presidents if they do not have absolute immunity. >> i guess what i am more worried about, you seem to be worried about the president being chilled. i think we would have a really significant problem if the president was not chilled. if someone with those kinds of powers, the most powerful person in the world with the greatest amount of authority could go into office knowing that there would be no potential penalty for committing crimes -- and tried to understand what the disincentive is from turning the oval office into, you know, the seat of criminal activity in this country.

>> all that is just part of what every american, regardless of their ideology, should feel outraged by. after listening to what happened today because, lest we forget, the supreme court is considering these arguments because trump asked them to and i said, yes. jack smith asked them to and they said no. the timing of that has done grave damage to our democracy. the senior editor -- we also have committee member -- joining us is a former assistant u.s. attorney. lucky for us, the cofounder and director of president joe biden -- of protective democracy is with us. let me start with you, congresswoman. what did you make of what you heard the supreme court today? >> shocking arguments from the

president, obviously, if he is correct, we do not have the democracy we thought we had. even more concerning is the conduct of the court in this case. they did not need to take the case at all because the appellate court had a very convincing and sound decision. when mr. smith asked them to decide earlier once they gave any indication he refused to do it, they drafted out and it looks like, i mean, i hope i am wrong, but rather than decide the case before them, they are going off on tangents that will lead to further delay and i have to think about my friend and former colleague, liz cheney. it cannot be in our system that a president who tried to overturn the government to stay in power will not be tried

before the next election. this is really outrageous. >> congresswoman, i guess knowing the details of the fruits of your investigation, these were not hypotheticals, were they? if he had mike flynn -- that is not a hypothetical. he has promised pardons to people that carried out his extrajudicial policies when it comes to immigration. we are in post extradition bill -- extrajudicial policy. there was a kabuki element to the questions and answers. >> it was disappointing and certainly, trump has always made clear what he intends to do. the problem is when we in america do not believe him, he is indicating an intention to be the dictator on day one. he said he intends, and these are his words, terminate parts of the constitution. you know, he does not intend to live under the rule of law. he is a grave threat to the constitutional order and it

looks like his partners in crime will be the supreme court. >> what do you think of what you saw today? >> i was one of those chops, i guess who genuinely believed that the court was partisan, yes. we have seen that for a long time, but i did not think they were lawless. i was one of the folks who said, you know, i do not think there is more than three votes for lawlessness and i did not think that some of the justices who appeared today to just bad away any serious recognition with january 6th. they did that in the anderson trial, that colorado ballet trial. they do not want to think about the events of january 6th and they said so explicitly today, where just as gorgeous and just mac justice -- we have to deal

with these questions. so, in declining to look at or see what jackson and kagan and others were saying over and over about what happened that day with trump, as you said -- they flipped the whole thing on its head and it turned into a deeply, deeply strange referendum on whether it is worse to go after president donald trump for what he did or to allow prosecutors to viciously overprosecute presidents with big statutes. i think i counted maybe five votes for the proposition that we would not want to chill presidents from crime because they might get really mad after. justice alito would refuse to leave office. therefore, we really have to be careful of letting, you know, overzealous, hyper partisan prosecutors beat up on them.

the notion, as you heard in that quote from justice jackson, that is a scarier prospect than the stuff that we have already heard from president donald trump and we are hearing now about a next iteration of president donald trump. the notion that there is a real fear, the witch hunt, is bone- chilling and deeply surprising to those of us who are institutional us right down to the wire. >> i do not feel -- i feel a little redeemed, right? the schism between who they are and they reveal themselves to be -- and the hope that -- i guess that is it in theory. however, they are paranoid, insulated, thin-skinned, brittle partisan actors and one of them is married to a

ringleader to the insurrection itself. was he there? did he have to be there? what did clarence thomas do? >> as he often does, he asked the first question. should he be there? no. what just happened to mark meadows in the state of arizona and his wife was texting with meadows. this is unconscionable, that he is on the bench, that he has not recuse under any construction of him having a conflict of interest. you should not be hearing this case, but he was there and he asked questions and i put him in the bucket of people who, has no interest -- the absolutely frightening possibility that president donald trump will not be held account to that, so, i mean,

the insanity starts at the top. the insanity is we do not have a mechanism for forcing a justice who clearly should not have been hearing that case from hearing that case. >> it is only wacky if we think ourselves as a shining city on a hill. >> look, i will -- even if it is in error. i think, we are agreed that for thomas and alito, i am not surprised. those two, long ago, traded in their black robes for red hats. for the other ones, it was surprising. in one particular way, i think zoe lofgren said supreme court justices, particularly supreme court justices, they like to say their job is limited to solely decide the case before them. they are not legislatures. they are not making big pronouncements. they are deciding a narrow case. what was surprising and amazing

is they did everything but address the case before them, which, as you pointed out at the beginning, was this is a case about whether a president should be immune from prosecution or accountability for trying to overturn the results of an election. that is the case. but i hope will happen before the ultimate opinion is written, hopefully quickly, there will be five is to say whatever immunity is, they do not cover that in there still a chance for the court to do that. i guess i will be the fool again if indeed they do not go. i hope they still do. >> the supreme court has -- faster than congress and the media. faster than any statehouse, any sort of state elected officials. one of the things that makes them different when it comes to january 6th is that president donald trump january 6th cases, he lost 60 out of 61. they were appointed by bush, by clinton, and by obama, and by

himself. 60 to 1 according to his record. also, david carter in california, early on, they said he committed felonies. all of them were figuring out for four years that he will be accountable. there is a schism, also, between the justices, their questions before they make any decision and those already on the record about the conduct on january 6th. >> yes. >> why? >> look, let's back up and talk about one of the reasons why people do not have a lot of faith in this court. it is because this is the first supreme court since we have had the second reconstruction in this country, meaning the civil rights movement of the 1950s and '60s where they major the constitution applied. it is the first court that has actually taken away from the

american people fundamental rights, the pediment the right to abortion, for example. voting rights, it has greatly eroded, but it is also how it was constitution, -- constituted. they say this will go well for trump because he appointed the justices. that is something we would normally hear a lawyer say out loud for very good reason. it is not supposed to be true, nor is it considered very politic to say it. in this case, i think the american public is looking at these justices. you make the point about clarence thomas and how he should be recuse and not even be sitting up there. we also have the fact that neil gorsuch would not be on that court if it were not that mitch mcconnell made up a rule that did not exist, that said barack obama did not get a hearing on his nominee for a vacancy a year before an election. amy coney barrett should therefore not be on that court

because if that rule that did not exist had existed, she would have been just a few miles outside of that -- all i am saying that everyone is saying, the court itself is rigged. if you think about the democratic processes by which we have usually had bipartisan agreement about how the supreme court is even constituted and what it actually does, when you get to this point, when you get to this point, what do you expect? >> yeah, yeah. >> yeah, yeah. odt. for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura and the preventive treatment of episodic migraine in adults. it's the only migraine medication that helps treat & prevent, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec odt. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. people depend on me. without a migraine, i can be there for them. talk to your doctor about nurtec odt today. (♪♪) [shaking] itchy pet?

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what could have been our top story on any other day, allies like rudy giuliani have been indicted for election interference in arizona. president donald trump, as we mentioned, is an unindicted co- conspirator. we have all the latest on that story soon. story soon. big, soft shoulder to cry on.

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our president, donald j. trump of the state of florida, number of bows, 11. for vice president, number of votes, 11. >> fake electors announcing the president -- trying to commit what would turn out to be a crime. maybe do not posted in social media. those were the 11 fake trump electors for the state of arizona in a video they filmed and posted on -- signing a false, fraudulent certificate saying trump won a state he had lost. last night, he had been indicted for exactly the conduct you saw in the video.

along with the top tier of the trump campaign and trump's allies, who helped mastermind the entire fake electors scheme. 18 people so far have been charged in connection with president donald trump's effort to overturn his defeat in the state of arizona. they include key trump aids rudy giuliani, mark meadows, boris epshteyn, and former attorney christina bob. christina bob was just named the rnc's election into the chair. they have no sense of humor, do they? trump has not been charged and he is described in the documents as an unindicted co- conspirator one catalyst for the whole plot to overturn his election defeat. representatives are mark meadows and rudy giuliani deny that they have been charged with doing anything.

it was revealed that trump was also an unindicted co- conspirator in the michigan case as well. joining our coverage, founder of the site democracy darkest, mark elias. he is also the author of a new book, minority rule, the right- wing attack on the will of the people and the fight to resist it. maia is also back. talk about arizona and something i try not to do what without warning, mark elias. it is good, right, to see justice grind. i feel like you and ari berman have been on the show, talking about the lies behind january 6th and the equally insidious suppression laws that were run through after since the earliest days of 2020. the important point seems to be

even with the success of the fake electors, it will not save us. no one is coming to save us. people have to understand the tactics that president donald trump and republicans are using and they want us to feel overwhelmed and fatigued and outnumbered, but the only way to really make sure they do not succeed in all their wild criminal delusions is to win elections. isn't that where we are, mark? >> absolutely. democracy is on the docket -- we cannot lose sight of the fact the way in which, in the long run, we are going to save ourselves from the likes of donald trump and his ilk is by having people vote and having them vote and winning elections, however i do want to say that, you know, it is not an insignificant obstacle, that we continue to see republican- controlled legislature's around the country enact new, more creative, harsher voter suppression packets. on that front, we are living in a split screen. just before we went on air, my team won an case in arizona that is going to preserve drop boxes and make fewer ballots --

we won a case a few days ago in montana, where that state was trying to enact new voter suppression laws. these battles are going on on the one hand, with less pomp and circumstance, while on the other hand, we are watching in the new york supreme court, lawyers of president donald trump saying, of course, my client to throw a coup. of course, they will assassinate their opponents and have immunity. justices, some of them are shrugging their shoulders, saying, that seems about right. >> it is the legal rapid response that your team does valiantly all day, every day, and what happened at the supreme court. voter suppression will be small beads if they feel like they have been given a green light for a successful coup. what i thought was amazing about the supreme court was i know the style and the cadence

is hypothetical. these are not hypotheticals. if trump had his people at the pentagon, he would have done what they are hypothetically saying he should be immune from. >> i thought one of the most distressing parts of the argument, like you said, there is a cadence to it. one of those distressing parts was what justice alito kept trying to shut down michael's discussion on the actual facts of this case. what president donald trump try to do here, you saw justice alito try to say, well, i do not want to talk about the facts of this case but hypothetical world. there will be a merging of all of this if president donald trump comes to power again. everyone who said do not take prize literally, they were proven wrong. president donald trump should have been taken literally. he tried to overturn a free and

fair elections through a gradation of tactics that lead to violence and an attempted insurrection at the nation's capitol. if they retreat to some sort of ivory tower or theoretical approach, the next time he will be more empowered. but you are correct. i guess that's what screen, we have to fight day in and day out for voters to try to make sure they can, in fact, access ballots and vote and have their ballots counted. >> what is amazing is when we look back on this time, it probably represents in modern times the most aggressive pushback, taking away the right to vote. drop boxes have the most stringent signature requirements in the states. the kind of voters they are targeting are not even secretly targeted. they are flagrantly targeting people republicans do not think vote for them anymore. >> that is correct. it is a broader counterrevolution against

democracy and what we see throughout american history is that the moments of the greatest progress has the fiercest backlash. there was a record turnout in 2020. what did they do? they try to overturn the election and incited an insurrection. after that, they said was institutionalize the resurrection for all these undemocratic means. we have a political system that is already undemocratic. we have an electoral college, a u.s. senate that violated these basic principles of one person, one vote. then we have institutions that are -- the supreme court, which we are talking about today. it is a supreme court majority, where five of six conservative justices are appointed by republican presidents, who initially lost the popular vote, confirmed by senators elected by a minority of americans, pushed through by

people like mitch mcconnell to do this very thing, to greenlight authoritarianism, to greenlight a coup, to greenlight voter suppression. there is a counterrevolution against democracy in this country and accountability is so important because right now, the election -- the most insidious example is regrouping and they are basically trying to succeed where they failed in 2020. >> this has been primetime weekend. i am nicolle wallace. please tune into deadline white house weekdays on msnbc. msnbc.

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