us, my colleague, nick aaron, will be in next in about half an hour with much more news by the . the welcome to worlds apart and living within your means is consider that furniture in many cultures with one notable exception the united states has public dat girls roughly by a trillion dollars every 100 days. and the past is used to sustain the so called

american dream. the i'm the of the whole world, but the benefits of these seemingly endless ballooning, a much less apparent nowadays, at least to ordinary people. how much longer would the united states or rather than american the leaves exist on the assumption that the world owes them a living will discuss that i'm now joined by michael hudson and the american economist undistinguished research professor of economics at the university of missouri. professor hudson, it's great to talk to thank you very much for being available. that's good to be here. now i know that your academic interest on academic ambition is in exploring and writing a history of death from scenario and times thrown secret teacher futile. you're up to the present that i'm sure that must have offered you a unique lance onto the american that which has cross 13 for trillion mark recently. do you see that primarily as an economic, as an ideological or perhaps as

a psychological issue or do you see it as an issue at all on the surface? it's a, an economic issue. yes. any logical because of the entire 19th century explained why a death overhead was going to be crushing the economy. uh, already you know, under marks. uh uh and uh, the rest of the last of the 19th century people were saying finance capital is both an unproductive as an economic bird. but beginning around the 20th century, there was a hole in the allowed to go claim saying, know, finance is not a version a the, it, they find the upstairs and the bankers earn their money. it's not on their and income is not again, economic rent like adam smith and john stuart mill in the marks and all of the classical economies said that this debt an interest was unproductive. the ology it

was that everybody's productive. the landlord is productive by providing a service, and john stuart mill said, well, they've got this income in their sleep, they don't work for it, so there's no real value. so the whole video and she of economics changed a way from an analysis of that. and if you look at the end, it goes through a ph, d, and thinking that it makes today in the united states, there's no discussion of that. it was because of the work i did for chase manhattan and realizing that a lot of countries chance pay their debts just like today, the global south isn't a problem. i work for the united nations for the united nations institute for training and research, saying a 3rd world can pay the deb. nobody wanted to discuss that. but mr. and mr. hudson, professor hudson, the united states is not like any other country. the americans believe strongly in the exceptional is meant sometimes the thing american officials don't believe the

rules and regulations or laws of nature doesn't apply to other countries, apply to them. what do you think? how do you understand the logic of the success of american administrations, of last thing they, they don't grow so precipitously? why aren't they wore it as much as use them to be? the logic is quite simple. the americans say, yes, we're running out of a for a death, but we're never going to retain that. that if we run spend dollars and other countries, any other country would have to do value or their currency, or they'd have to raise their interest rates, or they couldn't keep running into tax. but america says, as long as we run into dev and provide dollars, these dollars end up in the hands of others central banks. and these are the central bank savings. so we spend dollars, that's their savings. we're right and i are you the, i use never going to be cashed, so we don't have to worry about that. because if they wanted to, uh,

withdraw from the dollar area, we'll just send them the army and we'll have a regime change until we get a friendly roseann change that just holds all of our data. so that doesn't matter. that's the attitude of the united states. that's what makes it a big sectional nation. but in the past this, um, we are full parade to at least serve the american people. there was a believe that in our every successive generation would have a better life than the previous one. investing nowadays, more and more middle income people are struggling to make ends need. and so for a while it could be ignored or it could be sort of marginalized into sort of deplorable complaining. but it's a, it's a major issue and i believe it has to have some structural solutions. what those solutions could be in. well, you've, you've so say the bigger issue very clearly. that's exact, any issue uh the of people who are of the teenagers and people in their twenties

that i don't have any chance of uh, have of being able to get a house or get a job as easily as i could back in my day, 60 years ago and the open president biden tells people the economy is doing just fine by our young people opposing me. this is why they were opposing them because they, they, it costs $50000.00 a year to go to college and state. and they have so much student that, that they can't afford to take out a mortgage to buy a house and their own. so they're still living with some parents and the parents so well we never had to pay anything like that. uh and the health care is, uh, so it more expensive than that ever was. so that the people, the voters say just what you say. things like going down the hill and mr. buys and we'll say that's wonderful for the offer. can you get the stock market because of that? right. well the wealthiest 10 percent are doing great. but the for the 90 percent,

that's what you described. it's like, uh the situation is getting worse. well, those 90 percent, i tend to be very proud of that democratic system. can they actually change anything about the way the country structured about the way that our economy is functioning, given that they have elections this year? that nobody was running for president, except i think jo style is a 3rd party and i guess it was talking about economic policies. they're all talking about military policies or israel and russia. it's uh, take the other many more or less, but nobody's talking about. i cannot make policy and certainly not the economist as well. uh well, additions uh, very used to deflecting from uh, you know, real concern. so by projecting, you know, some scares on to other countries. but as you mentioned, the americans are feeling the pinch already. how long do you think they will be able to sort of use foreign policy instead of talking and doing some real policies

until other countries such as the brakes plus uh, china, russia, and ryan and the others decide that things don't have to be less white. there is an alternative and they create a whole set of alternative organizations to the united nations standard national monetary fund world. but there has to be an alternative. and one says, and alternative the whole world will gravitate towards the end of the, the, the united states. so isolated itself as thank since isolating, russia, isolating, china, isolating them. but it's isolated so many people that know it's left all alone. and all the rest of the people have to say is we can make our own world. we don't do well because i'm excited. this is already happening. things to be yours own policy . i mean the policy of trying to sanction russia or isolated from the rest of the world. i think it clearly backfired against the united states. and i want to ask you about specifically about the russian in china because you called uh you've been

critical of the u. s. foreign policy, and you called the united states a care agent. putting aside the moral considerations. what do you seeing on the downside of a such a policy for its author is when the united states or the united states was trying to prevent the rest of the world from creating an alternative. the united states is trying to make its own rules. that's what it goes, the rules space order, but that's completely logs with the international law and the united nations. that's the rollover, that international law, again. so if the united states can cite tape, tape, training, case, pay us, it will prevent other countries from getting together. at last, the end crating. an alternative, most of the chaos is around the countries where the united states was trying to start a colored revolution. and in order to have a regime change to bring a friendlier, more, a pro, your west client oligarchy,

into being linked argentina or brazil, or germany. that's the ideal go to a country who they want leaders of another country to be uh, essentially representing us interests, not the interest of the wrong country. and by chaos, you can prevent countries from spelling out oil. what is our own economic and social interest? but this policy clearly is not working with either russia in china. and i think both of these countries are domestically acting themselves very different, different the united states, and that they are very circumspect about that public, that they are very conscious about them. and painting, economic and social stability about investing into the infrastructure about actually making sure that the people do not suffer and that the living stand there's a no decreasing precipitous way. a one day of the united states is running

a risk here of not only and not that shipping the, the desired goals for in both the goals, but also in and toggle rising further antagonizing their own people as well. you can recognize that the united states doesn't the united states as plan a retail other countries what to do, and they obeyed it but, and they don't have a plan b. suppose you worked for the state department, then you just said, uh what you're saying that other countries have their own interest of the, of their bosses website. well, you're not a team player. if you don't, we have team a, if you don't think our team a is or plan a is going to work that not a team player you don't belong in. the american doesn't have a plan be only a plan and the reality is a plan b. but they don't have that there was no room for reality and plan. i don't think you know where it's been, you know, they, they essentially ation. we can do whatever we want. but the, mr. hudson. uh,

i think this is something that many people around the world are struggling to understand about the united states. you have so many universities, so many things. tanks about so many, so many research commissions and you know, when you, yourself work on long term historical trans. i'm sure these people in the state department, they, they, they should have access to some of that literature. how call is the baby and they seem to be so ignorant. that's the only read literature that agrees with their position. so j a, the holes are the head of the fbi i in america called video laundry told gratification. if you read the new york times or the washington post or the manger media, there's no discussion of this is 11 story. and that said, professor had said that we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. the

or the the, i'm not sure come on this as they will show a good this things for me is getting that way. see me is the non smoker in your

mind store enough to monday. so stuff with a just didn't show erica, by a demo putting that issue in your store or do i show eric along with one of the that's not as makers off of christ to train us man that we could buy that size unit . right. uh yeah, yeah. 2 which is what i want to move over here, but as of now, particularly that group, cut them around quite inflate and mobile base. crazy, nice, odd cries, is it? absolutely, i'd rather proof of an issue with the really good news that the so the 3 of us and you can be the one, i'm not very good feel interest where so we're saying you're going you. why

am i still thought your best way to us? which is really nice piece, there's still can use sort of the, [000:00:00;00] the welcome back to all the parts with my co hudson, an american economist, undistinguished research professor of economics at the university of missouri. now, before the break, we talked about, uh, washington, picking up a flight vista, russia in china. and i opened here, here in the russia and increasingly saw in china that washington is waging in battle, not just with them,

but with history is such that if it is trying to sort of turn the top and turn back bit tied of history reaches objectively moving away from the uni polar world. i wonder, what do you think about that is not working. the united states trying to impose sanctions on russia. that's the best thing the, the could have happened to russia because the sanctions on russia, against agriculture, against the other items mo, made russia fetus produce a phone food as on agriculture. and now, and so the major, great export or it's, it's no longer dependent on the united states in europe, for manufacturers, for consumer goods. it's making it so. so the buy is set telling the rest of the world don't trade with russia, adult trade with china. they've forced these countries to save. all right, we won't depend on the united states. we're going to stop ex, importing from them. and you'll just have a,

the german foreign minister. go to china and say, why won't china buy uh, the more goods from europe today. you're exporting to us more than we're exporting to you. and china said, well, you, you follow the american sanctions. you won't export computer chips to us. you won't export computer chip making machinery to us. you won't explored anything that the united states, those kind of help work and woke feeding people could help the feed soldiers. yeah . your euro bang, the united states sanctions and you won't trade with us. so there's, there's nothing they are that american, your american bosses will let you export to us. so that's your problem to take it up with your bobby was the united states, not with us. so actually russia, yeah. in china, over in the drivers said no, they can say it'd be one sections. augusta and then we would just knock the train with you and cape it at all. and america is completely dependent on russia and china for many raleigh carols,

even for the engines. for us rockets that go up to the moon is dependent on russia . all the rest of it has to say is either of all or nothing. you know, we're happy to send you what you need if you don't give us what we need. but if you're the one to do that, they have other people to trade with that, but i think it's not only china or russia, i think the majority of the world wants to, you know, develop it's economy productively, wants to be respected, wants to be treated fairly in economy in politics, why is it so difficult for, for the west to understand that i mean it's not in the economic issue anymore. it seems to be like some exceeded psychological question. that for some reason, the decision makers in the west cannot understand. like you need to talk to people with respect so that they tribute in the same way that the americans understand that very well. they understand what the,

the rest of the world wants. they don't want that. they says they want other countries to be defended. and one of the ways they hold other countries than dependency and prevent of attempt rates from doing what they want is there's in the norm, us, us dollar dep, owned by the global cells and by other countries in the united states and via the international monetary fund can keep saying, well, we will create a currency crisis for you. yeah, we are out of the, of the dollar to the in order for other countries to do what they want. they have to withdraw from the us or but, and that means we're not paying the us dollar debt. this down at that was almost an act of war. it was an act of financial war against them by lending that money for the am of really only to the or find out like are things like the money. and that the on the condition that they privatize and sell off their public domain,

their basic infrastructure, their uh, oil and mining rights, their lam, america wants to take their wells fargo at the end of donald trump made of declare he said in any deal we make with any country america as to when they're going to be the loses, that's almost verbatim what he said. and other countries don't want that deal. where are they going to be the losers? then they're going to have to group together and just say the, we're not gonna pay the dollar depths, we're not going to export what you tell us to export. we're going to grow our own food. we're going to follow the chinese and russian computer systems. so we don't have to be part of the, of the computer systems and chair chips and the media that the, the us has all of us 5 we're in. we can go our own way that the world is breaking apart into 2 into 2 sections. and the united states doesn't want to say it,

because i've seen that the realize of going down the hill and it can exploit this assess, they want to keep the game going of taking and taking as long as they can as well. but sooner or later reality, we'll check on them. and as you said, it seems to be a pretty broad trend of countries choosing to you know, side way or, or sideline american regulations. not because they, you know, prioritize, rush or china. but because they prioritize that own national interest. now if that trump growth, what alternatives would the west have? i mean, can the west sustain itself within its own can? does it have enough resources? doesn't have enough infrastructure enough capital enough acumen and strategy to exist within its own bubble. no cap, because the united states, as the industrialized as moved all of its industry to foreign countries, is dependent on raw materials from other countries. is there is such

a high debt overhead in the united states. the incident depend on it, so you'd have many of the corporations and the banks go insolvent and bankrupt. so no, the west can, except that the united states and just one big war that's taken 3 years. yes. one the war against europe in germany. it's made germany in europe, completely independent. and so it's going to depend on european purchases of the arms through nato. european purchases of american gas and the german firms are moving to the united states so they can get an expensive energy. some firms are moving to china, but europe as a dense on your end, it's all going to look like last the end. the bowls and countries declining population declining industrialization, but all of this, so they're all of this decline of year will be at a slow individual. westover news though is very strong now because the bill of

money is leading europe. so the united states. so it's not a go for a while, it can always go on longer than yes i now professor hudson, i know that you have served as a consultant to many governments and international organizations. if i were to ask you to give some advice to, let's say, developing nations on how to talk to the united states. because the american style of negotiating can be very intimidating. but as you pointed out, you know, those countries also have some leverage right now. they have some alternatives. how would you advise them to conduct the, you know, relations with the united states in a fair manner and not in an adversarial manner, but then the self serving and fair manner will realize in the 1st place that america is a paper tiger. and if you look at on america waged on economic war against russia since 2020, to look at how it strengthens russia. look at america's war against china. our

strengths of china. yes. ok to be america's enemy. just don't try to be. it's friend. you can, you can both say it in the american orbit and with a new civilization was 85 percent of the world's population showing that 85 percent and work together. there's no way you can work in the united states without the united states trying to exploit and you know, now we have only a few minutes left them in this time i want to ask you about what's going on in gaza. you recently rolled up some 50 years ago when you were working with the hudson institute. there were some number some, most of the agents who were being trained with you. and you suggested that one of them currently serves as the main advisor through the is really prime minister benjamin. that's me out here and you know, who is the are right. and yeah, and he suggested that what is happening in the region right now, you're heard being discussed the half a century ago. what exactly was it?

all of this was plan to be at the end and the israel was supposed to play the role of leading local revolutions. they at that time and they didn't have isis. and the terrorist groups, the funk, they thought that the front of the yeah the to the enemy of the chaos and i'm may, was going to be boca stan so and so be getting at that time the ca begin to move. it's the agents end of the loop to stem, hoping that that would work against the ramp. but now that you advise us, you have a israel playing. the role is managing isis, and it's working is america's foreign legion. so america is recruiting these uh well, hobby. uh, sort of crazies and they're staring them against syria. they're staring them against russia and all along its borders. well, what's happening and goes, that's up it already. it's very unpopular in america. most americans are against

the war. and you can, there's a huge propaganda of the, for the universities are expelling. i still understand professors will say that does the palestinians are human beings, obviously president by and knows that he cannot be re elected as well. uh, waging a genocide in palestine. now the question is, uh, in the newspapers it says buy it and this towing and netanyahu going to attack around. but most of the say 8 most of the national security council has wanted to attack a ram for the last 10 years. that's always been the plan. so the question is, is by and saying all of this, so to me for a show to make it up here is if america won't help is real if there was a fight, or is america trying to tell? not yet nothing. yeah, ok, you know, between us go ahead and do it and then we'll come and then we'll have the final fight against the ram. that's that nobody, no. so what's the 1st or if that's and the one thing that i'm sure you may know is

whether america or israel for that matter, have resources for that kind of 5. because it's one thing to sound the and you know, some military aid to ukraine or even to israel, but to wage a war against a major country that has powerful allies not only in the region, but also around the world. that's quite a different that they taking, they may want all they want, but do they have the resources to carry it out? that's the whole point. the resources are my 6 in, in england, and the say i know the american. all right. so the thing is they do attack or ran, you can be absolutely certain the united states us behind them, 100 percent. that is the end. that's why i around says, we understand that the united states as the enemy, the israel, of course, israel's, if it attacks us, is the enemy. but we're going to retail years against the united states themselves in 2 ways. number one,

against the american troops occupying erect the syria. number 2, sinking a ship in the state of our moves. this is what we were talking about 60 years ago. if you have like a shift in our models, uh the oil from a 70 or 80, it cannot be export and you will have an oil prices store. so you can imagine that this is good news for russia. oh, out of all this and that's, that's really the question or ran doesn't really have to fight back is real and america. all it has to do is 2nd shipping to remove this and uh, there goes uh, the price structure can be inflation in the united states and europe. well, i assume she can sooner or later come home to roost, and that may be the outcome of the policy that the united states has perceived pursuit for so many tickets. we have to leave it there. professor hudson's, thank you very much for your time. both act crazy man, and thank you for watching cope's this here again,

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