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jared kushner, apparently testified before a federal grand jury investigating efforts to overturn the 2020 election. that's according to the "new york times," which says donald trump's son-in-law, kushner, was questioned about whether the former president was privately admitting the fact that he had lost while publicly claiming the lie that he won. let's get straight to "new york times" reporter maggie haberman, who broke the story. maggie, what kinds of questions were prosecutors asking jared kushner in front of this grand jury? >> so jake, the line of questioning of kushner, who went before the grand jury in june, a time when prosecutors for jack smith were really, really active in interviewing witnesses around trump's mindset, appeared to be trying to get at just that. they were trying to determine whether trump knowingly based his actions on a lie in claiming widespread fraud that impacted the outcome of the november 2020 election. now, as we understand it, kushner has insisted that it was his impression that trump genuinely believed the election was stolen, according to a person
jared kushner, apparently testified before a federal grand jury investigating efforts to overturn the 2020 election. that's according to the "new york times," which says donald trump's son-in-law, kushner, was questioned about whether the former president was privately admitting the fact that he had lost while publicly claiming the lie that he won. let's get straight to "new york times" reporter maggie haberman, who broke the story. maggie, what kinds of questions were...
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i think it matters because jared kushner was obviously. there i was told back in mid-december of that time period that jared kushner was going with a ivanka trump and urging trump to concede the election. they never bought into the idea that it was stolen. that doesn't mean they spoke up. but going to him privately and urging him to concede. hope hicks is also notable. we know she spoke to the january 6th congressional committee. it's kind of interesting how much of a road map they have paved for a lot of this stuff. but she talked to them about urging trump to remain -- to tell people who came to washington for january 6th to remain peaceful in the days leading up to that day. so they both have kind of offered their perspectives of that to the january 6th committee. we don't fully know what they said to the grand jury that was hearing them when they went last month. we do know one line of questioning is whether trump privately acknowledged he had lost. >> you can't reveal what it was you were asked about or said. what kind of information
i think it matters because jared kushner was obviously. there i was told back in mid-december of that time period that jared kushner was going with a ivanka trump and urging trump to concede the election. they never bought into the idea that it was stolen. that doesn't mean they spoke up. but going to him privately and urging him to concede. hope hicks is also notable. we know she spoke to the january 6th congressional committee. it's kind of interesting how much of a road map they have paved...
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which is obviously jared kushner aunt hope hicks. possibly two of the closest people to donald trump during his time in the white house. and certainly during this time period. we know they both went and testified before the grand jury. hearing the testimony in this testimony to overturn the election but not just trump at his allies. i think it matters because jared kushner was obviously there. i was told back in mid december of that time period that jared kushner was going with ivanka trump. and urging trump to conceding the election. they never bought into the idea that it was stolen. that doesn't mean that they spoke up going to him privately and urging him to concede. hope hicks is also notable. we know that she spoke to the january 6th congressional committee. it's interesting how much of a roadmap they have paved for a lot of the south. but she talked to them about urging trump to tell people who came to washington for january 6th to remain peaceful. in the days leading up to that day. they both have kind of offer their perspect
which is obviously jared kushner aunt hope hicks. possibly two of the closest people to donald trump during his time in the white house. and certainly during this time period. we know they both went and testified before the grand jury. hearing the testimony in this testimony to overturn the election but not just trump at his allies. i think it matters because jared kushner was obviously there. i was told back in mid december of that time period that jared kushner was going with ivanka trump....
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jared kushner, and i want to read from here, get you to elaborate, mr. kushner did testify before the grand jury at the federal courthouse in washington last month, where he is said to have maintained it was his impression mr. trump truly believe the election was stolen, according to a person briefed on the matter. what do you make of that? >> what i make of that is that if you are the prosecutor you want to know what everyone would say if this were to go to trial. you would certainly want to know what the people closest to trump would say, because you wouldn't want there to be any surprises. you wouldn't want jared kushner to say well, actually, something that is very surprising that could up and what you know. so you want to have all the facts before you go forward because someone like jared kushner could be called by the defendant, donald trump, to testify. so while kushner's testimony, based on a reporting, does not get the prosecutors there on the question of intent, the question of whether he acknowledged that he lost. it's important for them to kn
jared kushner, and i want to read from here, get you to elaborate, mr. kushner did testify before the grand jury at the federal courthouse in washington last month, where he is said to have maintained it was his impression mr. trump truly believe the election was stolen, according to a person briefed on the matter. what do you make of that? >> what i make of that is that if you are the prosecutor you want to know what everyone would say if this were to go to trial. you would certainly...
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because if jared kushner truly believe that trump believe the election was stolen, then jared kushner is living on different planet than the rest of us are. but he of his is lying about that, there's trouble there to. >> i don't think that jack smith gives a squat what jared kushner's impressions are. he is concerned with the facts. and the facts are that trump knew that, alyssa griffin the white house communications director said that trump told her days after the election, can you believe i lost to joe biden. the joint chief of staff, mark milley, he told him the same thing in december that he lost. trump people filed 60 lawsuits claiming fraud in the election, they lost all 60 times. there is audio of steve bannon before the election saying that trump was going to say he won even if he didn't. again -- said that before the election. ali, regardless of what kushner, the impression was, all of the evidence suggests that trump knew that he lost,. but he didn't care. as he was concerned, losing the election didn't mean that he still couldn't be president, and that is exactly what jack
because if jared kushner truly believe that trump believe the election was stolen, then jared kushner is living on different planet than the rest of us are. but he of his is lying about that, there's trouble there to. >> i don't think that jack smith gives a squat what jared kushner's impressions are. he is concerned with the facts. and the facts are that trump knew that, alyssa griffin the white house communications director said that trump told her days after the election, can you...
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jared kushner and hope hicks spoke under oath. hicks was asked whether trump was told he lost the election. whether trump privately acknowledged he lost the election in the days after it happened. evan perez is out front, and evan, these are two significant players in trump's orbit, his son-in-law by his side, hope hicks one of his most loyal lieutenants throughout his administration. both now speaking under oath to the federal grand jury. what more are you learning? >> these testimonies according to sources who spoke to kaitlan collins and katelyn polantz happened in june, which is around the time line of what we are seeing. a lot of the activity from the special counsel's office, and that question, of course, the question of whether trump really knew or acknowledged that he had lost the election is actually a very important one, and one of the smartest things that the former president has done over the last couple of years since he did, dooindeed lose the elecn and left the white house. one of the smartest things he has done is
jared kushner and hope hicks spoke under oath. hicks was asked whether trump was told he lost the election. whether trump privately acknowledged he lost the election in the days after it happened. evan perez is out front, and evan, these are two significant players in trump's orbit, his son-in-law by his side, hope hicks one of his most loyal lieutenants throughout his administration. both now speaking under oath to the federal grand jury. what more are you learning? >> these testimonies...
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. >>> abc news confirming tonight jared kushner has now testified before the january 6th federal grand jury investigating former president trump. and new reporting here tonight on the line of questioning for kushner. jon karl is here. >>> the young new york city attorney accused of being a serial rapist in boston pleading not guilty to new charges. already charged with sexually assaulting four women. tonight, how many more cases is he now charged with? >>> president biden in finland, saying vladimir putin has already lost the war in ukraine. and what president biden said about the wall street journal reporter evan gershkovich. biden willing to swap a prisoner now for that reporter's release. james longman reporting from ukraine. >>> here in the u.s., the hunt for that murder suspect across state lines in the northeast. the major new clue tonight. the discovery. and what authorities are now saying. >>> the world health organization weighing in tonight on the key ingredient in diet coke, so many other soft drinks. does it pose a cancer risk? and why authorities in this country say more s
. >>> abc news confirming tonight jared kushner has now testified before the january 6th federal grand jury investigating former president trump. and new reporting here tonight on the line of questioning for kushner. jon karl is here. >>> the young new york city attorney accused of being a serial rapist in boston pleading not guilty to new charges. already charged with sexually assaulting four women. tonight, how many more cases is he now charged with? >>> president...
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, jared kushner has reportedly testified before a federal grand jury. what we're learning about his testimony. that's coming up. raw curiosity. raw love. raw energy. no dog ever thought, “what if someone sees me like ththis”" no catat ever asked permission before taking up residence on your keyboard. raw is all pets are, and raw is all they need. raw attention. raw affection. and raw food. like what we make here at stella & chewy's. for too long, big pharmaceutical companies have bought off politicians so they can get away with ripping us of that's changing now. joe biden ju capped the price of insulin foseniors at $35 a month. gave medicare the power to negotiate lower prescription drug prices. and prices are already starting to go down. the out-of-pocket cost is dropping for 27 drugs. [narrator] learn how the inflation reduction act will save you money. >> woman: why did i choose safelite? i love my electric car, so when my windshield got cracked, i trusted the experts at safelite. with their state-of-the-art technology, they replaced the windshie
, jared kushner has reportedly testified before a federal grand jury. what we're learning about his testimony. that's coming up. raw curiosity. raw love. raw energy. no dog ever thought, “what if someone sees me like ththis”" no catat ever asked permission before taking up residence on your keyboard. raw is all pets are, and raw is all they need. raw attention. raw affection. and raw food. like what we make here at stella & chewy's. for too long, big pharmaceutical companies have...
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they asked jared kushner and other witnesses as well. there is indication that people heard him say in the days after the election an acknowledgement he knew he lost. we heard alyssa farah griffin say that she heard him say, you can believe i lost to this guy? kushner has not indicated his father-in-law knew he had lost. apparently his testimony to the prosecutors is that he thinks his father-in-law believes some of the things he was saying. there's indication he had reason not to. he was told time and time again by people in his own campaign, in his own orbit, his own government that what he was saying was not true. they hired agencies to investigate the fraud claims. the agencies hired by the trump campaign said, no, nothing there, along the lines you are talking about. >> ken, barbara, peter, as always, thanks to all of you. >>> a new world health organization report, warning of potential not so sweet risks associated with aspartame. yesterday, the w.h.o. classified it as a possible carcinogen but said the move was based on limited ev
they asked jared kushner and other witnesses as well. there is indication that people heard him say in the days after the election an acknowledgement he knew he lost. we heard alyssa farah griffin say that she heard him say, you can believe i lost to this guy? kushner has not indicated his father-in-law knew he had lost. apparently his testimony to the prosecutors is that he thinks his father-in-law believes some of the things he was saying. there's indication he had reason not to. he was told...
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jared kushner, member of the trump family profiting off of their access of -- sometimes there is a code conduct for supreme court justices and throw in presidential family members. sons and daughters of sitting presidents, should they have their own code of conduct? should congress try to address this? >> it's an interesting question that i haven't engaged in before. we have been engaging to try to get the supreme court to adopt a code of ethics as you reference. they are the only member of the entire federal judiciary not covered by a code of ethics. members of congress have to fully disclose their asset, their stock holdings, their dealings, and -- >> should presidential family members perhaps come under additional scrutiny. >> that may be worth looking at because, frankly, as you referenced, jared kushner wasn't just a private citizen. he worked in the white house. >> if you are outraged by hunter biden, you should be outraged by jared kushner. you can't pick and choose. congressman dean phillips from minnesota is openly out there saying he thinks there should be a contest. he thinks
jared kushner, member of the trump family profiting off of their access of -- sometimes there is a code conduct for supreme court justices and throw in presidential family members. sons and daughters of sitting presidents, should they have their own code of conduct? should congress try to address this? >> it's an interesting question that i haven't engaged in before. we have been engaging to try to get the supreme court to adopt a code of ethics as you reference. they are the only member...
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investigators have questioned aides including jared kushner, all of them close to former president trump to establish his state of mind, whether he knew he lost the election but still took part in efforts to illegally overturn the election anyway so tonight if the former president himself suggests an arrest and indictment is coming, how soon could this all play out? abc's chief washington correspondent jonathan karl leading us off tonight. >> reporter: donald trump is now on the verge of indictment on the most serious allegations he, or any other american president, has ever faced, that he illegally tried to cling to power after losing the 2020 presidential election. special counsel jack smith notified the former president late sunday that he is a target of the wide-ranging investigation into the events leading up to the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol. trump himself revealed the news today in a statement saying he had received a letter from prosecutors "stating that i am a target of the january 6th grand jury investigation, which almost always means an arrest and indictment." he
investigators have questioned aides including jared kushner, all of them close to former president trump to establish his state of mind, whether he knew he lost the election but still took part in efforts to illegally overturn the election anyway so tonight if the former president himself suggests an arrest and indictment is coming, how soon could this all play out? abc's chief washington correspondent jonathan karl leading us off tonight. >> reporter: donald trump is now on the verge of...
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. >> we learned late yesterday through reporting from you and kalin collins, that jared kushner testified in front of the grand jury. has there been any reaction from the former president? >> they are not surprised, they know that all of the subpoenas have gone out, they do the prosecutors have been interested in talking to this list of people. they know that they are targeting the prosecutors, interviews with people in trump's immediate area when he was in the white house in those final months to try to get a sense of his mind-set. so there is not a lot of surprise. it is also not a comfortable thing and no one on the campaign or legal team particularly enjoys the fact that trump's family is involved but they are not surprised, jared kushner works in the white house. >> publicly, the former president certainly rallies, seems he is happy to talk about it. you have any reporting on how he is actually doing this privately? >> viewing, which, the investigation? >> his indictment and also, all of the above, really. he is playing it all publicly. he is suffering this for everybody else's benef
. >> we learned late yesterday through reporting from you and kalin collins, that jared kushner testified in front of the grand jury. has there been any reaction from the former president? >> they are not surprised, they know that all of the subpoenas have gone out, they do the prosecutors have been interested in talking to this list of people. they know that they are targeting the prosecutors, interviews with people in trump's immediate area when he was in the white house in those...
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jared kushner worked in the white house. it is what it is. >> publicly the former president seems at rallies to talk about it. do you have any reporting on how he's viewing this privately? >> viewing which? the investigation or -- >> yeah. >> -- his indictment? >> his indictment and also all of the above really. he's sort of playing it off publicly has he's suffering this for, you know, everybody else's benefit. >> look, he is playing this politically. he has incorporated the indictment that he has already -- that he has now and the possibility of another and possibly yet another, one in georgia and one in washington over january 6th and his efforts to stay in power. he has melded this completely into his political campaign. and you're, i think, going to see that going forward for some time. he is -- you know, he laughs it off or he dismisses it or he describes it as a witch hunt. and the you're going to see that for a long time. he has been very angry at various points about the federal indictment in particular. he is facin
jared kushner worked in the white house. it is what it is. >> publicly the former president seems at rallies to talk about it. do you have any reporting on how he's viewing this privately? >> viewing which? the investigation or -- >> yeah. >> -- his indictment? >> his indictment and also all of the above really. he's sort of playing it off publicly has he's suffering this for, you know, everybody else's benefit. >> look, he is playing this politically. he has...
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kushner would say that? he doesn't want to be disinvited to thanksgiving so he said what he needed to say. >> george: what's the path to beating donald trump? >> through it. we've had these conversations. there is one lane to the nomination, and that lane is right through donald trump. he's at the head of it and you have to make the case against donald trump and convince republican primary voters two things. one, that he is not electable, and he will not beat joe biden. he's lost to him before and would lose to him again, and joe biden would bring a democratic house and senate with him, and two, that his record doesn't merit him to be the nominee again given all the failures both personal and policy that he has had. the difference with me having been a republican governor in a blue state is i had to deliver. i had to deliver results, and when we were in this bad of shape, george, i think the last time we were in this bad of shape as a country was in the late '70s with jimmy carter as president, angry, divide
kushner would say that? he doesn't want to be disinvited to thanksgiving so he said what he needed to say. >> george: what's the path to beating donald trump? >> through it. we've had these conversations. there is one lane to the nomination, and that lane is right through donald trump. he's at the head of it and you have to make the case against donald trump and convince republican primary voters two things. one, that he is not electable, and he will not beat joe biden. he's lost to...
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two updates the first is fox news can confirm the former president's son jared kushner testified before a grand jury here in washington, d.c. this is the special counsel grand jury looking into efforts to overturn the 2020 election. we also know in the second investigation involving special counsel jack smith, this is the documents probe. we are told specifically that doj, the team doubled down on keeping the trial on december 11th. donald trump, his team wants it after the 2024 presidential election. but special counsel jack smith's team submitted a motion just a few hours ago saying we want this to be in december. gillian? >> gillian: all right, david spunt at doj for us this hour. thank you. >> you are welcome. >> gillian: also getting new details about the investigation into the discovery of cocaine at the white house inside the west wing. the secret service said testing has been inconclusive. they have not been able to figure out where the drug came from or who brought it to 1600 pennsylvania avenue. correspondent mark meredith has the latest tonight from the white house. >> it is
two updates the first is fox news can confirm the former president's son jared kushner testified before a grand jury here in washington, d.c. this is the special counsel grand jury looking into efforts to overturn the 2020 election. we also know in the second investigation involving special counsel jack smith, this is the documents probe. we are told specifically that doj, the team doubled down on keeping the trial on december 11th. donald trump, his team wants it after the 2024 presidential...
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kushner testified before the grand jury investigating the election interference, and also former trump adviser hope hicks did. this has got to probably make donald trump kind of nervous? >> well, i think in general these investigations make donald trump nervous. i think at this point, though, he's used to his associates, top allies, even family members, they were questioned by the january 6th committee. now they're being questioned by this grand jury. i think trump thinks that he's not going to be held accountable, and i think that's really where people are going to be looking to see. a lot of people hold donald trump responsible for the election interference, and of course for all the fallout, all the way up to january 6th. but the question these grand juries are going to have to determine is there criminal conduct. which is a different threshold, and, you know, that's where the question is, could donald trump be held accountable. >> indeed, thanks to one and all. several presidential candidates are spending summer friday in iowa, so it's obviously campaign season. this weekend, they
kushner testified before the grand jury investigating the election interference, and also former trump adviser hope hicks did. this has got to probably make donald trump kind of nervous? >> well, i think in general these investigations make donald trump nervous. i think at this point, though, he's used to his associates, top allies, even family members, they were questioned by the january 6th committee. now they're being questioned by this grand jury. i think trump thinks that he's not...
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they few that things have heated up when they learned that jared kushner had gone before the grand jury and it seemed there was a downturn in events. so the time was one of things that they were caught off guard by. the other was exactly what was in the target letter. these potential charges seem to indicate that the special prosecutor had ah bigger case than they had anticipated. so what they're looking for now and trying to figure out if there is any evidence that jack smith might have or any extra witnesses that went in, that they just didn't know about, that they were unprepared for. and the thing to keep in mind here is that they were watching this very closely. and so many of the witnesses that came before the grand jury were represented by lawyers would were paid for by trump world. which is giving them the opportunity to really have increased insight into what was going on in that investigation. but, again, they're now looking for that evidence trying to see if there is anything there. a lot of conversations going on around us. an while we're hearing from the advisers would say
they few that things have heated up when they learned that jared kushner had gone before the grand jury and it seemed there was a downturn in events. so the time was one of things that they were caught off guard by. the other was exactly what was in the target letter. these potential charges seem to indicate that the special prosecutor had ah bigger case than they had anticipated. so what they're looking for now and trying to figure out if there is any evidence that jack smith might have or any...
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kushner and mark metoxen is former vice president mike pence, we know the team has reached deep into that very close group of advisors and attorneys, all these folks have testified in many of tried not testified, and filing the legal motions, they are not going forward, because the testimony did not work for them right, they've collected the evidence they need, i would expect that some people would testify in the government behalf and maybe some of them under cooperation agreements to avoid their own liability. >> thank you, everyone else stay with us, the reaction from rational republicans to the target letter and kevin mccarthy calling it an example of what denies government. >>> the documents case in the intense battle over when the trial may begin, the decision in the hands of the judge, details aheaead. fast. reliable. perfecectly orchestrated. the united states poststal service. young mid 30s, was, couple of kids, recently went through a divorce. she had a lot of questions when she came in. i watched my mother go through being a single mom. at the end of the day, my mom raised
kushner and mark metoxen is former vice president mike pence, we know the team has reached deep into that very close group of advisors and attorneys, all these folks have testified in many of tried not testified, and filing the legal motions, they are not going forward, because the testimony did not work for them right, they've collected the evidence they need, i would expect that some people would testify in the government behalf and maybe some of them under cooperation agreements to avoid...
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kushner and many others who were behind closed doors with the president privy to what he said privately and not publicly. and we have learned prosecutors have interviewed election officials in the seven battleground states where trump's team falsely claimed fraud and put forward fake electors. and as i mentioned in the state of michigan for the first time today, 16 of those fake electors were charged with felonies. so this is significant. you've got all those other states out there, and 16 people now charged with federal crimes. we are awaiting news, of course, from another one of those states, georgia, which could pertain to the president himself where secretary of state brad raffenspergewho also appeared before the special counsel's grand jury was on the receiving end of this infamous phone call from trump. >> all i want to do is this. i just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state. >> a lot is happening tonight as all these legal threats to trump appear to be reaching a boiling point where things may start to happen very quickly. evan perez
kushner and many others who were behind closed doors with the president privy to what he said privately and not publicly. and we have learned prosecutors have interviewed election officials in the seven battleground states where trump's team falsely claimed fraud and put forward fake electors. and as i mentioned in the state of michigan for the first time today, 16 of those fake electors were charged with felonies. so this is significant. you've got all those other states out there, and 16...
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top white house officials like mark meadows, family members, jared kushner, his son-in-law, people from thcampaign who were involved in this for months and months. we have dan scavino, white house counsel pat cipollone. there are people who went in also and took the fifth. what i'm curious about is who's cooperating and who may be from that inner circle told them something they didn't know. >> yeah, that's a key question and obviously we hope to learn more opthat. thank you, both. donald trump said today that another indictment as we noted there would destroy the country, but could it also embolden his 2024 presidential campaign? plus the health of minority leader mitch mcconnell under scrutiny after three falls and that troubling moment where he froze before reporters. today there are now new calls for transparency within his own party. >>> and a major development just in about bronny james, the 18-year-old son of lebron james, days after he went into cardiac arrest at basketball practice. ♪ it's our turn now we'll make it up again. ♪ ♪ we'll build freelance teams with more agili
top white house officials like mark meadows, family members, jared kushner, his son-in-law, people from thcampaign who were involved in this for months and months. we have dan scavino, white house counsel pat cipollone. there are people who went in also and took the fifth. what i'm curious about is who's cooperating and who may be from that inner circle told them something they didn't know. >> yeah, that's a key question and obviously we hope to learn more opthat. thank you, both. donald...
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they're turning to jared kushner to help find that out. the latest on his testimony before a grand jury straight ahead on "morning joe." raight ahead on "morning joe. trying vapes to quit smoking might feel like progress, but with 3x more nicotine than a pack of cigarettes - vapes increase cravings - trapping you in an endless craving loop. nicorette reduces cravings until they're gone for good. power e*trade's award-winning trading app makes trading easier. with its customizable options chain, easy-to-use tools and paper trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are. e*trade from morgan stanley. power e*trade's easy-to-use tools make complex trading less complicated. custom scans help you find new trading opportunities, while an earnings tool helps you plan your trades and stay on top of the market. e*trade from morgan stanley. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. now you get out t
they're turning to jared kushner to help find that out. the latest on his testimony before a grand jury straight ahead on "morning joe." raight ahead on "morning joe. trying vapes to quit smoking might feel like progress, but with 3x more nicotine than a pack of cigarettes - vapes increase cravings - trapping you in an endless craving loop. nicorette reduces cravings until they're gone for good. power e*trade's award-winning trading app makes trading easier. with its customizable...
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Jul 21, 2023
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jared kushner gets $2 million from the saudis even though he oversaw mid east peace. ivanka trump is doing business with the chinese while she's working in the white house. totally beautiful. why do i bring that up? they want to say you have credibility. the problem is they have none, they have no credibility. because you're here at their behest, their lack of credibility questions your credibility, nopt because of you personally, but because of what they've done over the last several years. done over the last several years. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. now you get out there, and you make us proud, huh? ♪ bye, uncle limu. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ from prom dresses only pay to workoutsu need. and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b.
jared kushner gets $2 million from the saudis even though he oversaw mid east peace. ivanka trump is doing business with the chinese while she's working in the white house. totally beautiful. why do i bring that up? they want to say you have credibility. the problem is they have none, they have no credibility. because you're here at their behest, their lack of credibility questions your credibility, nopt because of you personally, but because of what they've done over the last several years....